uncleben

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

I can see how it would work, and seems to make sense.

Now I don't see myself paying $200 (or whatever) for something like that... I'd just take some scrap pieces and fab that up based on the very clear pics in that thread. (and when I say "fab", I mean, pay one of my buddies who knows such crafts as welding and working with metal )

I guess I'm wondering, would this type of thing be an illegal mod in Improved Touring? Honda Challenge? (I think I know the answer damnit, but wanted to hear someone else say it)

Anyhow, post your thoughts

RR98ITR

Dr. Scott: You wan´t find earth people quite the easy mark
you imagine. this sonic transducer, it is I suppose, some kind
of audio-vibratory, physio-molecular transport device

Brad: You mean...

Dr. Scott: Yes, Brad! It´s something we ourselves have been
working an for quite time, but it seems our friend here has
found a means of perfecting it. A device which is capable of
breaking down solid matter and then projecting it through
space, and - who knows - perhaps even time itself!

Janet: You mean he´s going to send us to another planet?

Frank: Planet, schmanet, Janet!
You´d better wise up, Janet Weiss
You´d better wise up, build your thinghs up
You´d better wise up


Scott, who...aw, who cares....

Catch 22

He buy me a soda
He buy me a soda
He buy me a soda
Then he tried to molest me in the parking lot
yep yep yep YEP!

Not legal for IT or SP or ST or HC (at least not right now in HC... but if you wait a month...)

And I like the marketing tests on the Club Si boyz and H-T members based on a high post count. How'd RJ miss out on this shizzy???
yep yep yep YEP!

Scott, who's a cynical bastard who'd just pay a buddy a few bucks to weld all that together if it was legal and if he felt it was worth it.

phat-S

Oh now this is just eerie as something real eerie!!! On the CD player right now!

There's this old woman, she lives down the road.
You can often find her, kneelin' inside of her hole.
And I'll often ask her, are you looking for a mother load?
Huh? No!
Noooo my child, this is not my desire.

Bah! Make 'em legal everywhere I say.

Catch 22

You are spooking me Adam.

Scott, who thinks that maid Maria, she's real OK.

phat-S

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You are spooking me Adam.

Scott, who thinks that maid Maria, she's real OK.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Believe me, it freaked the crap out of me sitting here. Only about 4 hours ago, I went downstairs and grabbed every one of their albums cause I was trying to find which album had Monkey Gone to Heaven (don't ask me).

Well with my feet on the air and my head on the ground .... in honor of Scott R., where is my mind?

Think Trompe is going in next.

Oh, so I am not too OT from OT of an OT, were there really frame locks in Rocky Horror??

Catch 22

Try this trick and spin it, yeah &lt;--My new signature

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Try this trick and spin it</TD></TR></TABLE>

Like a record, baby?

phat-S

Nah; Your head will collapse if there's nothing in it and you'll ask yourself ... where is my mind? Oh where is myyyy mind?

Sometimes people can be oh so dense
Didn't want it but he built it anyway (wow, ironically topical )

uncleben

Ah yes, the condescending force is strong with these, yes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by uncleben &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyhow, post your thoughts</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh wait, I guess I asked for it with a vague statement like that..

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not legal for IT or SP or ST or HC (at least not right now in HC... but if you wait a month...)</TD></TR></TABLE>

i see

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And I like the marketing tests on the Club Si boyz and H-T members based on a high post count. </TD></TR></TABLE>

haven't you heard about the scientific post count criteria as a proper prerequisite of testing a new product??


Seriously, is it plausible that using the front bumper support as a method of tying together and stiffening the front of the chassis would actually be as beneficial as being claimed here? Or at all? I'd definitely say the way the bumper support is bolted to the chassis now, at least on my 90si, would not seem to be the most effective way of making the front end more rigid, if that in fact is what the point is here, and there would be a lot of room for improvement. Then again, it wasn't designed with that purpose in mind to begin with, so the small bolts and big sloppy holes work fine for the current application of keeping my bumper cover on the front of the car.

How about one of us skeptical sarcastic racer types take this guy up on his offer (I of course do not have enough posts ) and do some testing on a track/slalom/whatever and generate some real world numbers? Anyone? Bueller?

phat-S

I wouldn't know if it works or not w/ a (your) CRX but I'd am not sure how it would be legal for racing in Improved Touring or Honda Challenge. I'd also be very interested in the (I guess suggestion w/ the product) idea that each side of the frame is moving independently from each other based on suspension load (and/or more importantly, that these frame clips are preventing that movement). To me and my novice eye, it seems like a cool idea but I would think the connectors would have to be rather substantial and somehow tied into something else to prevent movement in this area if there is movement (else wouldn't it just move like a paralelogram?? - I am visualizing a box frame; put angle brackets its not doing much but if you put a diagonal in there it actually does - I don't see where this does that). And if there is movement, would you not see a lot of flexing on the 4 bolts and the surrounding area around the bumper mounts. Kinda strikes me that a frame rail is going to bend the hell out of that relatively thin metal if its moving around. Maybe I am totally missing the point here and if so, per usual, I am interested in knowing how so.

Still absolutely bizarre that Scotty G up there is quoting something in my CD player at the time.

krshultz

Being serious here. I'm no chassis expert but I just went out and looked. My bumper support is attached to...the frame rails. Already.

Is it an optical illusion or something?

slammed_93_hatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Being serious here. I'm no chassis expert but I just went out and looked. My bumper support is attached to...the frame rails. Already.

Is it an optical illusion or something?</TD></TR></TABLE>

hahahaha, yes it is.


im gona go ahead and say "placebo effect". just like stress bars and those crazy *** EM racing bars.

**** the placebo effect worked on people with cancer im sure its batting 1000 here

jsi

Holy crap...

I think I need to start my own business selling some colored bracket kits. But to one-up these guys, mine will be located high up under the hood so that they can be seen. There's plenty of corners and spans under hood that could be connected and provide the appearance of extra rigidity... And of course they would be offered in anodized blue billet....

JeffS

I couldn't care less if this thing actually works or not.

I have noticed, however, that the radiator supports on the EK civics are much flimsier that on the 92-5 civics and integras. I'm somewhat embarassed to admit it, but I use the lower radiator support as a jack point on the civic. I tried this one time on a 96 civic I had and completely destroyed the radiator support, breaking the welds and bending not only the lower, but the upper supprt and the connector.

Even if there is some marginal benefit (like the typical, "I can feel the stiffness when I go up the driveway slow at an angle" type crap we usually hear) the hordes of people lined up to buy a similar item for a completely different car have more money than sense.


Modified by JeffS at 12:43 PM 9/16/2004

Catch 22

But guys... They are RED!!!
Geez. They're red forcrisakes. Doesn't that mean anything to you guys?

On another note, I find it amusing that the thread in the ITR forum is chock-full-o "Hey, please let me throw some money at that!!!" and this forum is filled with off topic smartassitude, Pixies lyrics, and general skepticism.
Guess maybe around here we need more proof than shiney red paint and some guys from Club Si giving a thumbs up.

Oh, and its basically not legal for anything but full Production, Modified and Prepared classes. But otherwise... Bring on that shizzy!!!

Scott, who also finds it spooky that he and Adam were not only listening to the same 15 year old stuff at the same time, but that I posted it and Adam saw it at that moment.

PupaScoopa

It is nice to see someone actually trying to innovate and being able to face challenges and failure. Especially with the sceptics on this forum! Remember the trunk frame (ladder bar?) that mounts with longer bumper support bolts?

I've always been interested in stiffening the chassis. Not just the typical strut towers, but moreso along the unibody short of seam welding. We'll never know exactly how well those mods help unless we put that chassis on a machine that will measure it's torsional stiffness, before and after. Life is rough.

Comparing the differences between the Acura Integra GSR vs. the Type R, Honda seemed to make the most structural changes in the rear of the car. Taking from this, one could infer that in order to make a awesome handling car, the back end should be focused on.

Solracer

The other thing I would like to see some data on (not likely) is how this affects the crushability of the front of the car, since you have made the front bumber area stronger, could this negate the crumple zone that is built into the front of the car?

rex_boy

Hey those guys that designed them uderstand vehicle dynamics.

Yea right.

phat-S

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The other thing I would like to see some data on (not likely) is how this affects the crushability of the front of the car, since you have made the front bumber area stronger, could this negate the crumple zone that is built into the front of the car?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am not sure you have here. To me, this looks like its trying to make the two frame halves leverage off each other (as if they moved up and down independently from each other; am I missing something here?) - if there was some sort of additional support (not sure where it would go but I assume you look at a tube frame chassis and get some good ideas) then I could see it also chaning how the front end takes a hit but otherwise, I am not sure it would at all, which is also why I am not sure how effective it would be for its intended purpose (or what I assume it to be) either. But I am not saying it doesn't work, I just don't see how it would.

Catch 22

My position is basically that I'm sure this probably does *something*. I'm just not sure what, how much, or if it matters.

Testing is needed. Real testing. Not "Hey, wow, golly, the car feels great now."
If not torsional testing then at least some back to back before and after testing on a skidpad and slalom with a recognized hot shoe. Cornering forces, slalom times, etc... Not perfect, but a helluva lot better than the feedback from a Club Si mountain run (and I'll admit to not even reading the ClubSi testamonials, but I'm pretty sure I already know what the "testing" involved and what the "testers" said afterwards).

This could be another one of those famous cases where a louder exhaust actually hurt performance but the driver was *positive* the car was faster. Or... It could be an awesome product.
I dunno. I haven't seen any evidence either way yet.

phat-S

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My position is basically that I'm sure this probably does *something*. I'm just not sure what, how much, or if it matters.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am not that sure it would do anything if its not putting any stress on the bumper support in the first place though no? But then again, I am not too convinced that the shock tower bars do anything either on a car like mine either. (but we've had that argument here and I don't have any clue what these cars are like w/out a cage in them performance wise). I dunno

slammed_93_hatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I am not that sure it would do anything if its not putting any stress on the bumper support in the first place though no? But then again, I am not too convinced that the shock tower bars do anything either on a car like mine either. (but we've had that argument here and I don't have any clue what these cars are like w/out a cage in them performance wise). I dunno </TD></TR></TABLE>

another thought to throw into the mix, what about the honda's in japan, there bumper suppoort is really really small and light weight= not that strong, so do you think that these car have a more flexable chassi? i for one don't think so

MechE00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I specifically chose the above Honda-Tech member to evaluate our product because he is a credible member with a lot of posts under his belt. I hope that people will believe his review and believe in our unique invention. I think he really was looking for a reason to bash our product, but I knew we would convert him.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">HERE'S SOME REVIEWS FROM CLUBSI MEMBERS. NOTE THAT THE FOUNDER , MODERATORS AND RACERS EVALUATED THEM. They are long time members</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here are some reviews from Clubsi co founder, moderators and racers:</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 2) We have strong product reviews from Clubsi.com cofounder, moderators and racers (all with many posts and years of membership. I think that is credible) </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The guy that posted his review is a well recognized Honda-Tech member with 6800 posts and 4 years at the club and he posted a very positive review. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> You will note that these are reviews from the co founder, moderators and racers with years of membership and many posts logged. So we hope that people will believe them credible. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> We selected him because he has been a member for 4 years and has 6800 logs posted. We think that is very credible. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Select people that had credibility within a web site. So we went with co founders, moderators and senior posters.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We earned the cover of a magazine and have great reviews from many long time trusted club moderators, co founder, Racers and including a former skeptic (Black R) who has credibility in Honda-Tech.com. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Jesus.. I just wish this guy would stop being so ******* secretive and tell us who the testers were and why he picked them!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The left one weighs in at a mere 13 ounces. The right one is the same. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Phew... For a second I thought he was going to say the right one was the "mere 13 ounces" and the left one was the same.


Nothing to say one way or the other right now about any claims made or refuted, but am I the only one who detects a stench of sales/marketting mania in the way the guy posts? Strangely, I'm not especially trying to bash him for that... that's probably the "right" way to do it with our stupid, short attention spanned population. (I did put in that first part in hopes of eliciting a chuckle or two, though)

Driven

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Holy crap...

I think I need to start my own business selling some colored bracket kits. But to one-up these guys, mine will be located high up under the hood so that they can be seen. There's plenty of corners and spans under hood that could be connected and provide the appearance of extra rigidity... And of course they would be offered in anodized blue billet....

</TD></TR></TABLE>
you could use a radiator support to frame rail cross piece. have it cross between the overflow bottle and the engine mount. Say it's for torsion rigidity due to the radiator's support being so weak.