FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
08-25-2004, 11:39 AM
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FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
What's up guys, it's me again....
A week or two ago I was presented with the challange of helping a friend figure out why his H22 wasn't cranking after rebuilding and reinstalling it. This kinda brings me to wonder exactly how many places have some FAQ's for this type of thing dealing with our cars? I looked around and didn't see one completely dedicated to this topic, so I decided to fix that. I know if you read all of the threads that we have listed out for you that the answer will sooner or later jump into your lap, but I thought it might be easier to compile a list of things together to check on when you run across this problem.
I'm going to toss out a few things to look for, and double check. I'd like for some of the more experienced guys to chime in with your experience. The thing is, experience is paramount. Reading, learning specs, knowing everything there is to know on paper will STILL not help you combat all the troubles you're going to run into. I'm hoping that if we can combine our experiences we'll at least give you a place to start.
The first thing you want to look at is whether the motor was rebuilt then installed, or simple pulled out of a junker and swapped in. They both present uniquely different issues as well as many of the same troubles.
Here's a keyword you need to know from here on out: Gremlins
No, not the movie. Gremlins are the little bastards that hide in your engine compartment and screw stuff up that you KNOW you did right. We all have them, some are just more active than others.
Lets start off with the basics. From my standpoint there are a very few things to make a motor acutally run on it's own. Tuning and running CORRECTLY is another subject. But to make a car run, you want several things:
#1: Oil pressure. You have to have this or you don't even WANT the motor to run. It'll take a while to prime a motor (or "smoke it") so don't expect oil pressure on the second spin. You WILL want it to have oil pressure after several times of spinning it over. Don't have an oil pressure gauge? Buy one. I use one every time I build a motor, and it's always handy to know that this is one problem you don't have. What happens when it turns over for 5 minutes and no oil pressure? Check your oil pump, oil pickup, blocked lines, etc. Start from the bottom and work your way up.
#2: Fuel. This is obvious. Check to see if you're getting fuel to your fuel rail. Taking off the fuel line and seeing if anything comes out. If it's dry after several minutes of trying to crank a motor, then you have issues. Start with the fuel filter, then fuel pump. It's always possible to have fuel, but the wrong amount. Too much or too little. Again, fuel pump and fuel filter. Don't have a fuel pressure gauge? Then you can measure it by timing one minute and spitting the fuel into a container. How much you have can tell you how many gallons (or liters) per hour you're flowing.
#2-A: Injectors. If they're firing at the wrong time, or not firing at all then you won't get anything to run. Ever. Wiring up the injectors makes a big difference. It's stupid, but if the wrong wires are at the wrong injectors, then... well... if I have to tell you, you shouldn't even be near a car. Next is the resistor box. Yup, that little wiring harness can come loose and cause all kinds of hell. Double check it's tightness. Also if you've swapped in a motor, make sure that you're running the sight type of injectors for your system. Peak and hold vs Saturated. You can always tell if you have fuel in the combustion chamber by spinning it over numerous times, then pulling the plugs and giving them the old panty sniffer test. If you smell gas, then gas is there.
#3: Spark. Fuel and spark combined with oxygen make it go boom. "How can I tell if I have spark?" The idiot friend test. Have an idiot friend hold the plug wire with a spark plug in the end of it (or just have it resting so that no one has to hold it) make sure to ground it, and then spin it over. If it sparks, you have spark. There are other more scientific ways, but the idiot friend works the best because if you're anything like me, the idiot friends are a dime a dozen. No spark? Start with the distributor, ignitor, rotor button, cap and plugs and plug wires. Make sure the motor and everything else on it are grounded correctly. A loose or missing ground wire can cause you to chase gremlins that don't exist.
#3-A: Wiring. Make sure all the wires are connected, make sure the wiring harness is on right, and make sure the ECU is fired up and ready to go.
#4: Timing. So you have spark, and fuel... we're assuming you have air. It still doesn't run. Well spark, fuel, and compression have to meet at the right time and this is controlled by (get ready for this) TIMING. If your cam sprockets are off, the belt isn't on right, or the crank gear is off, then things won't work. If you've hit the previous things and it still doesn't run, then check your timing. Although I usually double check this part first just because it's easy to mess up if you're not careful. A sprocket one tooth off etc can cause all kinds of hell. A bad distributor, improperly aligned distributor etc can cause timing issues too.
#5: OK, so you've done everything that I've said and nothing works. You're absolutley POSITIVE that you have fuel, air, and spark at the RIGHT TIMES. Well, then I'd move to a compression test. Check the compression on all your cylinders. This is more important when installing a freshly built motor, or a motor that is questionable. Sometimes motors that have been sitting for a while need to be loosened up. Try running Resoline (spelling? Sorry, it's been a while) in the oil. It'll help break in a long standing motor. You can pick it up at a local parts store like Auto Zone, O'fucked up Rileys etc.
#6: So what happens when the compression test comes back: 175, 175, 0, 180. The #3 cylinder is jacked up for some reason. All the fuel and air won't make a difference if it can't be compressed to be lit up and make some BOOM. My first angle on this is valves. Check the valve clearances. All of them. A sticking valve that hangs open will cause a motor to not run. While low compression (and sometimes even none at all) on one cylinder may not cause it to not run, it usually is the problem. Leaking valves, like it dropped one, or the timing belt jumped before you got the motor, or the head wasn't rebuilt like it shouldve been can also cause this. Even if that's not the issue (by some chance) that's causing the motor not to run, it's something that needs to be fixed before you consider rolling out of the driveway. Upside down or incorrectly installed compression rings. Yeah, sounds gay as hell, but I've seen it happen. Zero compression because of an idiot. You can't predict everything. A wet compression test will help this. Do a regular compression check, but pour a capful of oil in the cylinder. If the numbers imporve, then it's probably rings. Go ahead and start yanking.
That covers some of the very few basics, and even if it didn't get your car running, you've at least narrowed it down some. As I said before, I'd LOVE to have EXPERIENCED people chime in and add their two cents. Once we get enough info, I'll put it together and we can add it as an FAQ up in the FAQ thread.
As always in my informative threads I create, I welcome any and all variations, contraditcions or even straight up disagreements to my writings. No one knows it all, and everyone has some bad habits, or just wrong info floating in their heads. ON ONE CONDITION: You back up what you have to say with fact or personal experience. I usually frown upon "well, a friend of mine's roomate said ............."
Hope this helps out at least one person. Happy Preluding guys!!!!!
-Todd
aka JG Luder
aka Lone Luder
A week or two ago I was presented with the challange of helping a friend figure out why his H22 wasn't cranking after rebuilding and reinstalling it. This kinda brings me to wonder exactly how many places have some FAQ's for this type of thing dealing with our cars? I looked around and didn't see one completely dedicated to this topic, so I decided to fix that. I know if you read all of the threads that we have listed out for you that the answer will sooner or later jump into your lap, but I thought it might be easier to compile a list of things together to check on when you run across this problem.
I'm going to toss out a few things to look for, and double check. I'd like for some of the more experienced guys to chime in with your experience. The thing is, experience is paramount. Reading, learning specs, knowing everything there is to know on paper will STILL not help you combat all the troubles you're going to run into. I'm hoping that if we can combine our experiences we'll at least give you a place to start.
The first thing you want to look at is whether the motor was rebuilt then installed, or simple pulled out of a junker and swapped in. They both present uniquely different issues as well as many of the same troubles.
Here's a keyword you need to know from here on out: Gremlins
No, not the movie. Gremlins are the little bastards that hide in your engine compartment and screw stuff up that you KNOW you did right. We all have them, some are just more active than others.
Lets start off with the basics. From my standpoint there are a very few things to make a motor acutally run on it's own. Tuning and running CORRECTLY is another subject. But to make a car run, you want several things:
#1: Oil pressure. You have to have this or you don't even WANT the motor to run. It'll take a while to prime a motor (or "smoke it") so don't expect oil pressure on the second spin. You WILL want it to have oil pressure after several times of spinning it over. Don't have an oil pressure gauge? Buy one. I use one every time I build a motor, and it's always handy to know that this is one problem you don't have. What happens when it turns over for 5 minutes and no oil pressure? Check your oil pump, oil pickup, blocked lines, etc. Start from the bottom and work your way up.
#2: Fuel. This is obvious. Check to see if you're getting fuel to your fuel rail. Taking off the fuel line and seeing if anything comes out. If it's dry after several minutes of trying to crank a motor, then you have issues. Start with the fuel filter, then fuel pump. It's always possible to have fuel, but the wrong amount. Too much or too little. Again, fuel pump and fuel filter. Don't have a fuel pressure gauge? Then you can measure it by timing one minute and spitting the fuel into a container. How much you have can tell you how many gallons (or liters) per hour you're flowing.
#2-A: Injectors. If they're firing at the wrong time, or not firing at all then you won't get anything to run. Ever. Wiring up the injectors makes a big difference. It's stupid, but if the wrong wires are at the wrong injectors, then... well... if I have to tell you, you shouldn't even be near a car. Next is the resistor box. Yup, that little wiring harness can come loose and cause all kinds of hell. Double check it's tightness. Also if you've swapped in a motor, make sure that you're running the sight type of injectors for your system. Peak and hold vs Saturated. You can always tell if you have fuel in the combustion chamber by spinning it over numerous times, then pulling the plugs and giving them the old panty sniffer test. If you smell gas, then gas is there.
#3: Spark. Fuel and spark combined with oxygen make it go boom. "How can I tell if I have spark?" The idiot friend test. Have an idiot friend hold the plug wire with a spark plug in the end of it (or just have it resting so that no one has to hold it) make sure to ground it, and then spin it over. If it sparks, you have spark. There are other more scientific ways, but the idiot friend works the best because if you're anything like me, the idiot friends are a dime a dozen. No spark? Start with the distributor, ignitor, rotor button, cap and plugs and plug wires. Make sure the motor and everything else on it are grounded correctly. A loose or missing ground wire can cause you to chase gremlins that don't exist.
#3-A: Wiring. Make sure all the wires are connected, make sure the wiring harness is on right, and make sure the ECU is fired up and ready to go.
#4: Timing. So you have spark, and fuel... we're assuming you have air. It still doesn't run. Well spark, fuel, and compression have to meet at the right time and this is controlled by (get ready for this) TIMING. If your cam sprockets are off, the belt isn't on right, or the crank gear is off, then things won't work. If you've hit the previous things and it still doesn't run, then check your timing. Although I usually double check this part first just because it's easy to mess up if you're not careful. A sprocket one tooth off etc can cause all kinds of hell. A bad distributor, improperly aligned distributor etc can cause timing issues too.
#5: OK, so you've done everything that I've said and nothing works. You're absolutley POSITIVE that you have fuel, air, and spark at the RIGHT TIMES. Well, then I'd move to a compression test. Check the compression on all your cylinders. This is more important when installing a freshly built motor, or a motor that is questionable. Sometimes motors that have been sitting for a while need to be loosened up. Try running Resoline (spelling? Sorry, it's been a while) in the oil. It'll help break in a long standing motor. You can pick it up at a local parts store like Auto Zone, O'fucked up Rileys etc.
#6: So what happens when the compression test comes back: 175, 175, 0, 180. The #3 cylinder is jacked up for some reason. All the fuel and air won't make a difference if it can't be compressed to be lit up and make some BOOM. My first angle on this is valves. Check the valve clearances. All of them. A sticking valve that hangs open will cause a motor to not run. While low compression (and sometimes even none at all) on one cylinder may not cause it to not run, it usually is the problem. Leaking valves, like it dropped one, or the timing belt jumped before you got the motor, or the head wasn't rebuilt like it shouldve been can also cause this. Even if that's not the issue (by some chance) that's causing the motor not to run, it's something that needs to be fixed before you consider rolling out of the driveway. Upside down or incorrectly installed compression rings. Yeah, sounds gay as hell, but I've seen it happen. Zero compression because of an idiot. You can't predict everything. A wet compression test will help this. Do a regular compression check, but pour a capful of oil in the cylinder. If the numbers imporve, then it's probably rings. Go ahead and start yanking.
That covers some of the very few basics, and even if it didn't get your car running, you've at least narrowed it down some. As I said before, I'd LOVE to have EXPERIENCED people chime in and add their two cents. Once we get enough info, I'll put it together and we can add it as an FAQ up in the FAQ thread.
As always in my informative threads I create, I welcome any and all variations, contraditcions or even straight up disagreements to my writings. No one knows it all, and everyone has some bad habits, or just wrong info floating in their heads. ON ONE CONDITION: You back up what you have to say with fact or personal experience. I usually frown upon "well, a friend of mine's roomate said ............."
Hope this helps out at least one person. Happy Preluding guys!!!!!
-Todd
aka JG Luder
aka Lone Luder
08-25-2004, 11:41 AM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (Lone Luder)
well first thing i would do is find out who put it in and kick their *** 
08-25-2004, 11:42 AM
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Member
Here's a few more quick ones before heading to class:
- Did you make sure EVERYTHING was hooked up? (new ECU especially)
- Did you hook up ALL engine grounds? How about that big one under the tranny?
- Did you hook up all connectors correctly? There are a few that can be swapped out (TPS/IACV, IIRC)
More to come!
- Did you make sure EVERYTHING was hooked up? (new ECU especially)
- Did you hook up ALL engine grounds? How about that big one under the tranny?
- Did you hook up all connectors correctly? There are a few that can be swapped out (TPS/IACV, IIRC)
More to come!
08-25-2004, 11:59 AM
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Re: (LudeyKrus)
This may be sort of a thread jack, and if it is, feel free to adjust as necessary, but this is my .02
1. If your not very experienced at doing such a venture, get a book. Helms, Honda service, which ever. This way you can follow instructions that may not be 100% (I found the Honda service manual missed a couple little things), but it will be damn close, and get you there.
2. If your just pulling, rebuilding, and replacing the motor, do yourself a favor in the beginning, and label EVERYTHING you take off. This way you will know exactly where everything is supposed to go when you replace the motor.
I may not be the most experienced person here, as I have only rebuilt the one motor I have one time, but it started and ran perfectly the very first time I hit the starter because I followed these two rules, among other things, like the SEARCH button here.
1. If your not very experienced at doing such a venture, get a book. Helms, Honda service, which ever. This way you can follow instructions that may not be 100% (I found the Honda service manual missed a couple little things), but it will be damn close, and get you there.
2. If your just pulling, rebuilding, and replacing the motor, do yourself a favor in the beginning, and label EVERYTHING you take off. This way you will know exactly where everything is supposed to go when you replace the motor.
I may not be the most experienced person here, as I have only rebuilt the one motor I have one time, but it started and ran perfectly the very first time I hit the starter because I followed these two rules, among other things, like the SEARCH button here.
08-26-2004, 09:50 AM
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Re: (Lone Luder)
I know we already have pinouts for the ecu's in the FAQ's
But maybe someone could add a write-up on wiring in vtec
for cars that aren't already equipped with it
EDIT: here's a write-up on it from jdmludedude
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=833163
But maybe someone could add a write-up on wiring in vtec
for cars that aren't already equipped with it
EDIT: here's a write-up on it from jdmludedude
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=833163
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08-26-2004, 02:18 PM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (Lone Luder)
check the lines and make sure all are connected, better yet i bet you have a blown fuse, guarantee.
08-26-2004, 05:21 PM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (fexea01)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fexea01 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">check the lines and make sure all are connected, better yet i bet you have a blown fuse, guarantee.</TD></TR></TABLE>
LMFAO, Read the whole thread, not just the title.
LMFAO, Read the whole thread, not just the title.
08-26-2004, 05:30 PM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (fexea01)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fexea01 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">check the lines and make sure all are connected, better yet i bet you have a blown fuse, guarantee.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So you PROMISE that it's a fuse? Are you sure about that? Really?
*scratches head*
All this time and it's been a fuse.
Hey, wait... what do I get if its NOT a fuse? I get your Prelude. That's it.
So you PROMISE that it's a fuse? Are you sure about that? Really?
*scratches head*
All this time and it's been a fuse.
Hey, wait... what do I get if its NOT a fuse? I get your Prelude. That's it.
09-11-2004, 05:01 PM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (Lone Luder)
OK. I'm working on the swap right now and there are a few things we should
add to this.
When using the h23 wiring harness, there are two connectors for
the coolant temperature sensors.
on the h23 motor, there is a sensor on the front water outlet connector.
look at this pic
look at number 11
the h22a motor doesn't have one there so I swapped the connector over from
my h23 so it would work
one other thing, there is a vaccum box underneath the intake manifold that
didn't come with the swap. I had to swap that over as well.
it's number 12 in the picture
did any of you guys do this?
add to this.
When using the h23 wiring harness, there are two connectors for
the coolant temperature sensors.
on the h23 motor, there is a sensor on the front water outlet connector.
look at this pic
look at number 11
the h22a motor doesn't have one there so I swapped the connector over from
my h23 so it would work
one other thing, there is a vaccum box underneath the intake manifold that
didn't come with the swap. I had to swap that over as well.
it's number 12 in the picture
did any of you guys do this?
11-09-2004, 07:36 PM
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Re: (LudeyKrus)
Main Relay. Affects everything, makes you think its an igniter, or the dist. isn't getting signal or fuel pump is bad. All these things can be caused by a bad main relay.
11-10-2004, 10:39 AM
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Re: (jackstands)
Great idea and nice writeup. Couple things to add from my own experience:
The ground on the head near the ignition coil is very important. Along the lines of checking codes, you *should* get a cel when the ignition is first turned on, and then it should go out. This tells you the ecu has power and thinks everything is ok. If it stays on, check the codes and go from there. If it never comes on, check wiring, fuses, the bulb itself, etc. You will also hear the fuel pump turn on for a couple seconds, then turn off again. If this is a fresh install, turn the ignition on and off a few times to cycle the fuel pump. You will usually hear a "blurp" of air bubbling up from the return in the fuel tank. This tells you that all the air has been flushed out of the fuel filter, rail, hoses, etc. Good idea to check for fuel leaks after doing this. Finally, make sure the spark wires are hooked to the distributor in the correct position/sequence. It is possible to mix up the wires and think that the timing is fine, when it is actually off 360deg. If you don't have an oil pressure gauge hooked up, watch the oil light when cranking/starting the engine. It should be lit up with the ignition on and engine not turning. This tells you that the pressure sensor is hooked up, the light works, etc. It should go out very soon after the engine fires. This tells you that the engine has at least the minimum pressure. Finally, look the engine bay over carefully for loose items, tools, bolts, parts, etc. before ripping off down the street. Happy swapping....
The ground on the head near the ignition coil is very important. Along the lines of checking codes, you *should* get a cel when the ignition is first turned on, and then it should go out. This tells you the ecu has power and thinks everything is ok. If it stays on, check the codes and go from there. If it never comes on, check wiring, fuses, the bulb itself, etc. You will also hear the fuel pump turn on for a couple seconds, then turn off again. If this is a fresh install, turn the ignition on and off a few times to cycle the fuel pump. You will usually hear a "blurp" of air bubbling up from the return in the fuel tank. This tells you that all the air has been flushed out of the fuel filter, rail, hoses, etc. Good idea to check for fuel leaks after doing this. Finally, make sure the spark wires are hooked to the distributor in the correct position/sequence. It is possible to mix up the wires and think that the timing is fine, when it is actually off 360deg. If you don't have an oil pressure gauge hooked up, watch the oil light when cranking/starting the engine. It should be lit up with the ignition on and engine not turning. This tells you that the pressure sensor is hooked up, the light works, etc. It should go out very soon after the engine fires. This tells you that the engine has at least the minimum pressure. Finally, look the engine bay over carefully for loose items, tools, bolts, parts, etc. before ripping off down the street. Happy swapping....
04-23-2006, 09:39 AM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (JG Luder)
does anyone know if the h22 engine will mount onto the h23 tranny? and what else is needed for an h23 to a h22 motor swap? please help
04-23-2006, 10:04 AM
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im about to put a f20b in my prelude
its a 97 prelude
the motor is a 97-98
now will i have a problem with the swap, as far as eletronics go? i heard the fuel rails are reversed on those. this is the first JDM swap ive done, i dont know how they are.
also with the m2b4 transmission in a 97+prelude, will everything bolt up from my old trans?
its a 97 prelude
the motor is a 97-98
now will i have a problem with the swap, as far as eletronics go? i heard the fuel rails are reversed on those. this is the first JDM swap ive done, i dont know how they are.
also with the m2b4 transmission in a 97+prelude, will everything bolt up from my old trans?
01-08-2009, 06:31 PM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking... (JG L
i have a question i have a h23 supposedly rebuilt but has no compression on three cylinders and 150 on the other i double checked the timing according to helms manual its all properly timed can anyone help?
09-22-2009, 10:09 AM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
you thin you could answer this for me...
i swapped out my old h22a4 motor and put in a jdm h22a motor. the new motor won't start after the swap. the h22a4 had a crankshaft position sensor that i did not connect because the jdm motor did not have a crankshaft position sensor. is the crankshaft position sensor inside the distributor forr the jdm h22a?
and how do i wire it up because my old dizzy wires were obd2? (someone said you can get a h23 dizzy and it would be easier?
please help!
thanks
i swapped out my old h22a4 motor and put in a jdm h22a motor. the new motor won't start after the swap. the h22a4 had a crankshaft position sensor that i did not connect because the jdm motor did not have a crankshaft position sensor. is the crankshaft position sensor inside the distributor forr the jdm h22a?
and how do i wire it up because my old dizzy wires were obd2? (someone said you can get a h23 dizzy and it would be easier?
please help!
thanks
10-19-2013, 08:36 AM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
i need a lil help here.. i put a h22a on a 92 prelude that had an f22a1, i fired it up, and its started, but when i gas it in neutral it revs very slow and my headers get red hot..
10-21-2013, 07:47 AM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
Do that and we can help your specific problem. Thanks!
10-22-2013, 03:49 AM
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Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
I wonder what ever happened to Todd.... I miss the good ole HT days.
10-22-2013, 10:11 AM
#25
Re: FAQ: Dropping in a new motor and it doesnt work, what to start checking...
Looks like his last activity was over a year ago. I could have sworn it was more recent, jeez time flies by.