So I got my frame locks today........
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So I got my frame locks today........
I hope it's not a problem putting this here.... just vouching for a new product (which I'm not affiliated with).
As some of you know Korbach Performance has been beta testing their frame locks design for the 96-00 civic. I am the latest in a short line of guinea pigs, but I can't say it's bothering me..... the package came in today, and the presentation of the item is incredible, to say the least. The first thing I saw is the instruction manual... it's 25 pages long, and each page has a single step with detailed diagrams and directions. Removing the cushy stuff, I then saw that each part was fitted into packaging custom made for them. I almost don't want to remove the parts since I know they'll just get dirty. So, until I'm ready for them, each component will be sitting in its little space. The package even includes 3 drill bits that I will need for the install. I'm very impressed. I've bought a lot of parts for my car, and not a single one of them has come this well packaged.
To be very clear, I am not one for brand loyalty. If a product works to my standards you'll find me using it. Daniel (SeanJohn1802) had these installed on his car a while back, and i knew I had to have them on my own civic. So, here I am..... install goes down tomorrow, and I will follow up with a review since I haven't actually driven a car equipped with these yet.
So, pictures.........
As some of you know Korbach Performance has been beta testing their frame locks design for the 96-00 civic. I am the latest in a short line of guinea pigs, but I can't say it's bothering me..... the package came in today, and the presentation of the item is incredible, to say the least. The first thing I saw is the instruction manual... it's 25 pages long, and each page has a single step with detailed diagrams and directions. Removing the cushy stuff, I then saw that each part was fitted into packaging custom made for them. I almost don't want to remove the parts since I know they'll just get dirty. So, until I'm ready for them, each component will be sitting in its little space. The package even includes 3 drill bits that I will need for the install. I'm very impressed. I've bought a lot of parts for my car, and not a single one of them has come this well packaged.
To be very clear, I am not one for brand loyalty. If a product works to my standards you'll find me using it. Daniel (SeanJohn1802) had these installed on his car a while back, and i knew I had to have them on my own civic. So, here I am..... install goes down tomorrow, and I will follow up with a review since I haven't actually driven a car equipped with these yet.
So, pictures.........
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Re: So I got my frame locks today........ (Team 4R)
Might want to post up some information on what the product does, as I'm sure most people aren't familiar with frame locks, and what they do.
edit: For the lazies:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by korbach performance »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No matter how much money and time you’ve already invested, FRAME LOCKS can make your car’s ride and handling substantially better. By locking in the front frame to the existing stiff bumper beam, FRAME LOCKS solidify the entire front end, creating one continuous, rock-solid structure. With FRAME LOCKS installed, everything you love about your import will stay the same; and, all those handling improvements you’ve wished for will soon become a reality. </TD></TR></TABLE>
edit: For the lazies:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by korbach performance »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No matter how much money and time you’ve already invested, FRAME LOCKS can make your car’s ride and handling substantially better. By locking in the front frame to the existing stiff bumper beam, FRAME LOCKS solidify the entire front end, creating one continuous, rock-solid structure. With FRAME LOCKS installed, everything you love about your import will stay the same; and, all those handling improvements you’ve wished for will soon become a reality. </TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: So I got my frame locks today........ (rodrez)
hmmmm..... my mistake. i would explain but i have to run out the door right now. i'll take lots of pics of the finished product so it's very clear.
check this out in the meantime....... http://www.korbachperformance.com/framelocks.htm
check this out in the meantime....... http://www.korbachperformance.com/framelocks.htm
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#11
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Re: (Hella_JDM)
What are your expectations for this product? They neither cross the chassis to brace it nor do they triangulate any large gaps which would in turn stiffen the chassis. A 3-inch diagonal brace at the corner of your bumper beam isn't going to do a helluva lot when compared to proven, cheaper suspension modifications.
I hope someone can find a skidpad test or autocross time reference with before and after times/numbers so we can see exactly how this product fares against, I dunno, a strut tower brace.
I hope someone can find a skidpad test or autocross time reference with before and after times/numbers so we can see exactly how this product fares against, I dunno, a strut tower brace.
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Re: (Archidictus)
in theory these locks add an additional support between the front crossmember and each frame rail..... the end result would be that the connection between those pieces is made stronger and would flex considerably less. the benefits should be especially apparent during initial turn-in.
i also questioned how these things would compare to other products like front tie bars. thats why im beta testing them, so i can find out.... i happen to have front upper and lower tie bars on my car, so ill be sure to see how the car handles with and without them, before and after the frame lock install.
i also questioned how these things would compare to other products like front tie bars. thats why im beta testing them, so i can find out.... i happen to have front upper and lower tie bars on my car, so ill be sure to see how the car handles with and without them, before and after the frame lock install.
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Re: (Team 4R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Team 4R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in theory these locks add an additional support between the front crossmember and each frame rail..... the end result would be that the connection between those pieces is made stronger and would flex considerably less. the benefits should be especially apparent during initial turn-in.
i also questioned how these things would compare to other products like front tie bars. thats why im beta testing them, so i can find out.... i happen to have front upper and lower tie bars on my car, so ill be sure to see how the car handles with and without them, before and after the frame lock install.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm sure there's going to be a lot of negative responses about this product, as anything new to the import world usually goes through 3 phases:
1. ridicule (anything different is regarded as useless by most. And let's face it, there's a new "miracle" product introduced weekly in this market)
2. comparison to competition (if it makes it this far, there'll be knock off's galore)
3. acceptance or rejection (test results and threads like this will make it/break it)
I've never heard of this type or product before, but I'm curious as to the results. Please post up your experience once you have some road time, I'd like to see what you find.
i also questioned how these things would compare to other products like front tie bars. thats why im beta testing them, so i can find out.... i happen to have front upper and lower tie bars on my car, so ill be sure to see how the car handles with and without them, before and after the frame lock install.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm sure there's going to be a lot of negative responses about this product, as anything new to the import world usually goes through 3 phases:
1. ridicule (anything different is regarded as useless by most. And let's face it, there's a new "miracle" product introduced weekly in this market)
2. comparison to competition (if it makes it this far, there'll be knock off's galore)
3. acceptance or rejection (test results and threads like this will make it/break it)
I've never heard of this type or product before, but I'm curious as to the results. Please post up your experience once you have some road time, I'd like to see what you find.
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Re: (Knightmare69)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knightmare69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What happens when you get into an accident?</TD></TR></TABLE>
well if this product works at all...and is stiff enough to hold teh pressure of you hitting someone or a cement wall even...that bumper is there to take the force of you hitting something. if you hit something at even 10mph you can do some major frame damage to your car with this...instead of the bumper crushing..the frame locks would make it so the bumper would not crush but just transfer the energy even farther into the car. it may work out....in the short term...but i've seen crushed bumpers after minor front end colisions and they are made to crush for a reason....Insurance companies would not like this product. or the holes left in the frame if you took it off before they looked.
i believe we could make the same effect by putting a tie bar between teh frame rails in front of the engine. or just reinforing the radiator core. which should do the job god enough as it is....
if it actually works...when you get them for a teg and we have before/after numbers by a VERY experienced racer on buttonwillow or similar track.
well if this product works at all...and is stiff enough to hold teh pressure of you hitting someone or a cement wall even...that bumper is there to take the force of you hitting something. if you hit something at even 10mph you can do some major frame damage to your car with this...instead of the bumper crushing..the frame locks would make it so the bumper would not crush but just transfer the energy even farther into the car. it may work out....in the short term...but i've seen crushed bumpers after minor front end colisions and they are made to crush for a reason....Insurance companies would not like this product. or the holes left in the frame if you took it off before they looked.
i believe we could make the same effect by putting a tie bar between teh frame rails in front of the engine. or just reinforing the radiator core. which should do the job god enough as it is....
if it actually works...when you get them for a teg and we have before/after numbers by a VERY experienced racer on buttonwillow or similar track.
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Re: (handa)
As you all know these have been testing on clubsi(yes i'll admit it i'm from club si ) for some time now. I have seen them first hand and have driven cars with them. All i can say is you have to see it and feel it to believe the claims. And to the person saying something about the collision, these frame locks are designed to be strong when pressure is applied sideways but crumple when pressure is applied straight on(IE frontal collision).
And since i admitted im from club SI, i'm gonna fly my Sig lol
-kenny
And since i admitted im from club SI, i'm gonna fly my Sig lol
-kenny
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Re: (DewMota)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DewMota »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i read.
Understeer is virtually eliminated; you’ll feel as if you’ve achieved a 50/50 balance between your car’s front and back end
and walk away </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ya, wouldn't you need to stiffen the <U>rear</U> to get rid of the understeer?
Understeer is virtually eliminated; you’ll feel as if you’ve achieved a 50/50 balance between your car’s front and back end
and walk away </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ya, wouldn't you need to stiffen the <U>rear</U> to get rid of the understeer?
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Re: (jolt-tsp)
I found this disclaimer for the frame locks on their website:
Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
i. Change in the crush of the front-end structure, resulting in increased acceleration and forces exerted to the driver and occupants. This may increase injury or the likelihood of fatality to both driver and passengers.
ii. Air bags deploying at collision speeds less than originally intended by the manufacturer.
iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes.
Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
i. Change in the crush of the front-end structure, resulting in increased acceleration and forces exerted to the driver and occupants. This may increase injury or the likelihood of fatality to both driver and passengers.
ii. Air bags deploying at collision speeds less than originally intended by the manufacturer.
iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes.
#24
Re: (jolt-tsp)
I think I may be getting a set for testing to.
there was a thread going about these things in the ITR forum
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=928139
I asked him about some of this stuff, number 3 (iii) imparticular, this was his responce
Not trying to defend him just giving you guys the info he gave me
I am interested to see exactly what these do
there was a thread going about these things in the ITR forum
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=928139
Originally Posted by Draggin99Si
I found this disclaimer for the frame locks on their website:
Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
i. Change in the crush of the front-end structure, resulting in increased acceleration and forces exerted to the driver and occupants. This may increase injury or the likelihood of fatality to both driver and passengers.
ii. Air bags deploying at collision speeds less than originally intended by the manufacturer.
iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes.
Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
i. Change in the crush of the front-end structure, resulting in increased acceleration and forces exerted to the driver and occupants. This may increase injury or the likelihood of fatality to both driver and passengers.
ii. Air bags deploying at collision speeds less than originally intended by the manufacturer.
iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes.
Originally Posted by SolidRide
That's a good question. We did test this at a great expense.
In theory this kind of change should not make a difference in air bag
deployment. teh geometry tells a lot. This improves the lateral
stiffness but not the fore aft.
But theory is not good enough.
As responsible engineers we wanted to confirm so we actually tested it
in Santa Cruz. I spoke to an air bag sensing engineer expert and he
instructed me to measure the fore/aft acceleration when the car drives
over a pot hole. We did this in 2 conditions. Frame Locks on and
Frame Locks off. I paid a vibration testing engineer to measured the
acceleration right where the air bag sensor is located in the center
console. It varied by 3 % from Frame Locks on and off which is small
enough to say it is test variation. In addition the accelerations we
measured were in the low 3-4 g's level. Air bag will not deploy until
roughly 12-15 g's. So we're not even close by a long shot.
The laws are such that if a company intentionally sold or negligently
sold an unsafe product, the injured person could go after personal
assets. That's another strong incentive to do this right. Not to
mention the ethical aspects of it.
Even if you signed a disclaimer, if we were negligent and didn't do any
testing. You could sue regardless of the disclaimer. But in this day
of frivolous law suits, we have to cover it with a disclaimer. Today
there is disclaimers everywhere. If we lose sales that is the way it
is. We'd rather be truthful.
In fact your H brace and Traction bar would probably be much more
likely to increase the fore/aft stiffness and response to trigger a
false bag deployment. But it still is probably not significant. But
don't know, but would be significantly more relevant than our small
braces.
Air bags do go off under unusual circumstance. A friend of mine did a
BMW extreme ride skidded to the side where the car chattered and the
air bag went off. False deployments do occur.
Actually many of the after market companies have parts designed by very
good mechanics not degreed engineers like myself. They do not know all
the implications. We did the testing because one, we don't want to
release a unsafe product. Two, we don't want to get sued and lose
personal assets. No matter what, there's always a possibility of a
frivolous law suit winning. That is a risk in business and that's one
reason companies need to make a profit. Other wise, they are risking a
lot with nothing to return.
I believe that this product is engineered better than most products out
there. That's why such a small part makes such a big difference. Also,
you will see that it was designed with a clever method to insure
precision location of the drilled holes. It's also error proofed. The
welded stick nut is also a good innovation.
I am attaching the 1) photo of where the sensor is 2) The scope of
work for the test 3) test results....so you can see what I am saying
is true.
Other crash worthiness issues is a catch all for anything else such as
engine intrusion, side impact etc. The major ones are crush and air
bag deployment. But our attorney said this would be a line of defense.
If you want to talk about it, give me a call 650-464-4162. If you do
not feel comfortable doing this I am okay with it.
Thanks
David
In theory this kind of change should not make a difference in air bag
deployment. teh geometry tells a lot. This improves the lateral
stiffness but not the fore aft.
But theory is not good enough.
As responsible engineers we wanted to confirm so we actually tested it
in Santa Cruz. I spoke to an air bag sensing engineer expert and he
instructed me to measure the fore/aft acceleration when the car drives
over a pot hole. We did this in 2 conditions. Frame Locks on and
Frame Locks off. I paid a vibration testing engineer to measured the
acceleration right where the air bag sensor is located in the center
console. It varied by 3 % from Frame Locks on and off which is small
enough to say it is test variation. In addition the accelerations we
measured were in the low 3-4 g's level. Air bag will not deploy until
roughly 12-15 g's. So we're not even close by a long shot.
The laws are such that if a company intentionally sold or negligently
sold an unsafe product, the injured person could go after personal
assets. That's another strong incentive to do this right. Not to
mention the ethical aspects of it.
Even if you signed a disclaimer, if we were negligent and didn't do any
testing. You could sue regardless of the disclaimer. But in this day
of frivolous law suits, we have to cover it with a disclaimer. Today
there is disclaimers everywhere. If we lose sales that is the way it
is. We'd rather be truthful.
In fact your H brace and Traction bar would probably be much more
likely to increase the fore/aft stiffness and response to trigger a
false bag deployment. But it still is probably not significant. But
don't know, but would be significantly more relevant than our small
braces.
Air bags do go off under unusual circumstance. A friend of mine did a
BMW extreme ride skidded to the side where the car chattered and the
air bag went off. False deployments do occur.
Actually many of the after market companies have parts designed by very
good mechanics not degreed engineers like myself. They do not know all
the implications. We did the testing because one, we don't want to
release a unsafe product. Two, we don't want to get sued and lose
personal assets. No matter what, there's always a possibility of a
frivolous law suit winning. That is a risk in business and that's one
reason companies need to make a profit. Other wise, they are risking a
lot with nothing to return.
I believe that this product is engineered better than most products out
there. That's why such a small part makes such a big difference. Also,
you will see that it was designed with a clever method to insure
precision location of the drilled holes. It's also error proofed. The
welded stick nut is also a good innovation.
I am attaching the 1) photo of where the sensor is 2) The scope of
work for the test 3) test results....so you can see what I am saying
is true.
Other crash worthiness issues is a catch all for anything else such as
engine intrusion, side impact etc. The major ones are crush and air
bag deployment. But our attorney said this would be a line of defense.
If you want to talk about it, give me a call 650-464-4162. If you do
not feel comfortable doing this I am okay with it.
Thanks
David
I am interested to see exactly what these do
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Re: (Draggin99Si)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Draggin99Si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll be sticking to larger swaybars and tie bars.
I'll be sticking to larger swaybars and tie bars.