Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils
07-07-2004, 02:23 PM
#1
Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils
Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils
Something for you guys to think about.
The new API SL rated oils have very low amounts of ZDP or ZDDP (zinc salt of O,O-dialkyl dithiophosphate). ZDP is an anti-wear additive that protects against metal-to-metal wear by forming a sacrifical layer.
ZDP contaminates catalytic converters so it's concnetration on oils have been significantly reduced.
It is my thinking that this is why almost all new Honda's come with roller rockers because Honda engineers addressed the effects of the new oil mandates.
Feel free to disagree with this but I will be running motorcylce type oils in my motors to deal with this.
Something for you guys to think about.
The new API SL rated oils have very low amounts of ZDP or ZDDP (zinc salt of O,O-dialkyl dithiophosphate). ZDP is an anti-wear additive that protects against metal-to-metal wear by forming a sacrifical layer.
ZDP contaminates catalytic converters so it's concnetration on oils have been significantly reduced.
It is my thinking that this is why almost all new Honda's come with roller rockers because Honda engineers addressed the effects of the new oil mandates.
Feel free to disagree with this but I will be running motorcylce type oils in my motors to deal with this.
07-07-2004, 03:12 PM
#3
Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (ThatOneGirl)
For the non-chemistry majors the "thio" in "dithiophosphate" means containing sulfur. The sulfur reacts with iron to form iron-sulfur compound (the sacrificial layer) that helps prevent wear in metal-to-metal contact. However sulfur combustion by-products is not healthy for our environment.
Japanese ring manufactures have also switched to nitrided rings because of environmental madates such as this.
Japanese ring manufactures have also switched to nitrided rings because of environmental madates such as this.
07-07-2004, 04:17 PM
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (Rocket)
Roller Rockers=less friction, which in turn = less heat, more power, and a longer life. I believe that Honda was quoted at stating that the reduction on the K20 was ~5% less friction than the standard B series engine, which can be one of the reasons for the increased power found in the K series blocks.
Austin
Austin
07-07-2004, 04:46 PM
#5
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (Rocket)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For the non-chemistry majors the "thio" in "dithiophosphate" means containing sulfur. The sulfur reacts with iron to form iron-sulfur compound (the sacrificial layer) that helps prevent wear in metal-to-metal contact. However sulfur combustion by-products is not healthy for our environment.
Japanese ring manufactures have also switched to nitrided rings because of environmental madates such as this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is this the reason why a few selected piston-ring company tend not to hold that long. I've seen a quite a few not last than 15k or less, whereas as OEM Honda rings tend to last at least 100k.
Japanese ring manufactures have also switched to nitrided rings because of environmental madates such as this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is this the reason why a few selected piston-ring company tend not to hold that long. I've seen a quite a few not last than 15k or less, whereas as OEM Honda rings tend to last at least 100k.
07-07-2004, 04:47 PM
#6
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (ThatOneGirl)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ThatOneGirl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow Rocket, you do know your stuff! 
nice write up 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
btw, is that you on the avatar????????
nice write up </TD></TR></TABLE>btw, is that you on the avatar????????
07-07-2004, 04:56 PM
#7
Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (BERT-O)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BERT-O »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Is this the reason why a few selected piston-ring company tend not to hold that long. I've seen a quite a few not last than 15k or less, whereas as OEM Honda rings tend to last at least 100k.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am not sure about this but the Automobile OE's are well are of the different requirements and trends. For instance Newen tells me that OEM exhaust valve seats will be so hard that they can only be cut with single point carbide cutters. The hardness of the seats is required since more and more engines are designed to run leaner and leaner.
I've seen this happen in Air Cooled VW where mysterious wear problems cropped up even though all the parts people were using stayed the same.
Is this the reason why a few selected piston-ring company tend not to hold that long. I've seen a quite a few not last than 15k or less, whereas as OEM Honda rings tend to last at least 100k.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am not sure about this but the Automobile OE's are well are of the different requirements and trends. For instance Newen tells me that OEM exhaust valve seats will be so hard that they can only be cut with single point carbide cutters. The hardness of the seats is required since more and more engines are designed to run leaner and leaner.
I've seen this happen in Air Cooled VW where mysterious wear problems cropped up even though all the parts people were using stayed the same.
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07-07-2004, 05:02 PM
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (BERT-O)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BERT-O »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
btw, is that you on the avatar????????</TD></TR></TABLE>
i think you just asked a question that everyone was afraid to ask......
but lets try to keep it on track
btw, is that you on the avatar????????</TD></TR></TABLE>
i think you just asked a question that everyone was afraid to ask......
but lets try to keep it on track
07-07-2004, 09:55 PM
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (SUPERNATURAL)
i knew this rocket, but i do believe that there are other oils to use for automobiles that do protect your motor more than any oil with a high zinc concentration- oils that contain moly.
schaffers, redline, amsoil, and a few others are there to provide protection for the motors we love and labor over, and i wouldnt use anything else for my "high performance" motors.
BTW rocket, i know u probably dont know about this site,but
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ is probably one of the most comprehensive oil and filter websites u can go to, and hte forums and the people on it REALLY know their stuff concerning oil and the stuff thats in it
schaffers, redline, amsoil, and a few others are there to provide protection for the motors we love and labor over, and i wouldnt use anything else for my "high performance" motors.
BTW rocket, i know u probably dont know about this site,but
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ is probably one of the most comprehensive oil and filter websites u can go to, and hte forums and the people on it REALLY know their stuff concerning oil and the stuff thats in it
07-07-2004, 10:02 PM
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (johnzm)
here's some info on why i like castrol 0w-30 (german, not north american)
convo i had with ejprimo and other stuff:
(3:08 PM 5/21/2004) ejprimo: well the german syntec 0w-30 is a different animal. its the only 30wt. motor oil on the market that is porsche approved. its way thinker than castrol 5w or 10w-30. its a thick 30wt. oil which is ACEA A3 rated unlike any other 30wt. synthetic on the market. you can only find this oil at autozone and it has to say made in germany on the back and does not have the energy conserving starburst label on the front. it is thicker than mobil 1 10w-30 at low temps proving that it doesnt have that many viscsoity improvers which tends to burn off.
(3:09 PM 5/21/2004) ejprimo: and even without the extra viscosity improvers this oil is still a 0w when cold.
(6:59 PM 5/21/2004) EVOL: would you only recommend the 40weight oil castrol syntec when i go 2.0? or would it be more beneficial to me even with stock bore? i have mild mods on my 2000 gsr..but drive hard every now n then.
(7:00 PM 5/21/2004) EVOL: thanks for all the info bro...stuff is good to know. my buddy gets castrol syntec from kmart but i don't think it's the same stuff that's at autozone.
(9:41 AM 5/25/2004) ejprimo: i would use a 40wt. oil if i built up my motor. they allow the use of 40wt. in japan in stock motors. yeah that stuff a k-mart isnt the same as german castrol syntec 0w-30. the back of the bottle has to look like this and it can be found at autozone. http://www.manthanein.com/images/0w30_German.jpg
(7:19 PM 5/25/2004) EVOL: cool man thanks. i just came from kragen and they don't have it...says made in USA with foreign and somethin blah blah..
(7:38 PM 5/26/2004) EVOL: omg you would never believe! i just got 15 quarts of this stuff and 2 bosch filters for just under 19 bucks! hahahaa he only charged me for 2 filters and ONE quart. this woulda never happened if it wasn't for you! hahaha..thanks again! lol
(7:39 PM 5/26/2004) ejprimo: man is that a deal! did you find the german made syntec 0w-30? man i have to go out and pay $25 bucks for 5qts and $8 for an S2000 oil filter, so you got one hell of a deal.
(2:15 AM 5/27/2004) EVOL: yes, the 0w-30. went to autozone and there it was, just like you said. porsche approved on the back.
(2:16 AM 5/27/2004) EVOL: i chose the bosch filters because they are made by champion labs (supposedly) which is the same maker of the mobil one filter (i'm sure you're probably aware of this)...supposedly the only difference in the two filters is the media inside (mobil is slightly betteR) but most say it's overkill for the price difference.
http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....pment
http://theoildrop.server101.co...00045
the ninth post will tell you a lot about viscosity and wear.
http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/offic....html
low friction oil were developed to increase fuel efficiency.
both good reads
the higher the HTHS number, the better the oil retains its film strenth under high loads.
to recieve an ACEA A3 designation, a motor oil is required to have an HTHS of 3.5 or better. and if it falls below 3.5, then its designated as an ACEA A1.
mobil 1 5w-30, HTHS= 3.08
http://www.mobil.com/USA-Engli...0.asp
royal purple 5w-30= 3.2
amsoil S2000 0w-30, HTHS= 3.5
german syntec 0w-30, HTHS= 3.5
Schaeffer #156 5w-30, HTHS= 3.8
redline 5w-30, HTHS= 3.8
the product data sheets for all the motor oils can be found on the web. here are the high temperature high shear numbers for popular 5w-30 motor oils: (no hths # on the product data sheets of chevron, havoline, shell, quakerstate, and valvoline, but they do indicate viscosity in cst at 100 C)
-conventional
kendall gt-1= 3.0
exxon superflo= 3.1
castrol GTX= 3.1
pennzoil= 3.1
Schaeffer #100= 3.2
citgo supergaurd= 3.2
-blends and high mileage
pennzoil blend= 3.0
castrol syntec blend= 3.1
kendall gt-1= 3.1
castrol high mileage= 3.3
pennzoil high mileage= 3.3
Schaeffer #701= 3.5
-synthetics
castrol syntec= 2.92
pennzoil= 3.07
mobil one= 3.08
kendall gt-1= 3.1
citgo superguard= 3.2
royal purple= 3.2
amsoil= 3.5
german syntec (0w-30)= 3.5
schaeffer #156= 3.8
redline= 3.8
all the 10w-30 motor oils have an equal or higher hths than the same brand in 5w-30. why not give castrol syntec 0w-30 a chance? its thicker than mobil 1 5w-30 at startup and at operating temp.:
(higher number = higher viscosity)
castrol syntec 0w-30: 65 cst @ 40 C, 11.6 cst @ 100 C.
-this is closer to a 10w-30 in terms of viscosity
mobil 1 5w-30: 56 @ 40 C, 10 @ 100 C.
mobil 1 10w-30: 62 @ 40 C, 10 @ 100 C.
mobil drive clean 5w-30: 62 @ 40 C, 10.5 @ 100 C.
castrol syntec 0w-30 has a pour point of -57 C.
mobil 1 5w-30 has a pour point of -45 C.
syntec 0w-30 also has a better viscosity index and flashpoint than mobil1 5w-30.
convo i had with ejprimo and other stuff:
(3:08 PM 5/21/2004) ejprimo: well the german syntec 0w-30 is a different animal. its the only 30wt. motor oil on the market that is porsche approved. its way thinker than castrol 5w or 10w-30. its a thick 30wt. oil which is ACEA A3 rated unlike any other 30wt. synthetic on the market. you can only find this oil at autozone and it has to say made in germany on the back and does not have the energy conserving starburst label on the front. it is thicker than mobil 1 10w-30 at low temps proving that it doesnt have that many viscsoity improvers which tends to burn off.
(3:09 PM 5/21/2004) ejprimo: and even without the extra viscosity improvers this oil is still a 0w when cold.
(6:59 PM 5/21/2004) EVOL: would you only recommend the 40weight oil castrol syntec when i go 2.0? or would it be more beneficial to me even with stock bore? i have mild mods on my 2000 gsr..but drive hard every now n then.
(7:00 PM 5/21/2004) EVOL: thanks for all the info bro...stuff is good to know. my buddy gets castrol syntec from kmart but i don't think it's the same stuff that's at autozone.
(9:41 AM 5/25/2004) ejprimo: i would use a 40wt. oil if i built up my motor. they allow the use of 40wt. in japan in stock motors. yeah that stuff a k-mart isnt the same as german castrol syntec 0w-30. the back of the bottle has to look like this and it can be found at autozone. http://www.manthanein.com/images/0w30_German.jpg
(7:19 PM 5/25/2004) EVOL: cool man thanks. i just came from kragen and they don't have it...says made in USA with foreign and somethin blah blah..
(7:38 PM 5/26/2004) EVOL: omg you would never believe! i just got 15 quarts of this stuff and 2 bosch filters for just under 19 bucks! hahahaa he only charged me for 2 filters and ONE quart. this woulda never happened if it wasn't for you! hahaha..thanks again! lol
(7:39 PM 5/26/2004) ejprimo: man is that a deal! did you find the german made syntec 0w-30? man i have to go out and pay $25 bucks for 5qts and $8 for an S2000 oil filter, so you got one hell of a deal.
(2:15 AM 5/27/2004) EVOL: yes, the 0w-30. went to autozone and there it was, just like you said. porsche approved on the back.
(2:16 AM 5/27/2004) EVOL: i chose the bosch filters because they are made by champion labs (supposedly) which is the same maker of the mobil one filter (i'm sure you're probably aware of this)...supposedly the only difference in the two filters is the media inside (mobil is slightly betteR) but most say it's overkill for the price difference.
http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....pment
http://theoildrop.server101.co...00045
the ninth post will tell you a lot about viscosity and wear.
http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/offic....html
low friction oil were developed to increase fuel efficiency.
both good reads
the higher the HTHS number, the better the oil retains its film strenth under high loads.
to recieve an ACEA A3 designation, a motor oil is required to have an HTHS of 3.5 or better. and if it falls below 3.5, then its designated as an ACEA A1.
mobil 1 5w-30, HTHS= 3.08
http://www.mobil.com/USA-Engli...0.asp
royal purple 5w-30= 3.2
amsoil S2000 0w-30, HTHS= 3.5
german syntec 0w-30, HTHS= 3.5
Schaeffer #156 5w-30, HTHS= 3.8
redline 5w-30, HTHS= 3.8
the product data sheets for all the motor oils can be found on the web. here are the high temperature high shear numbers for popular 5w-30 motor oils: (no hths # on the product data sheets of chevron, havoline, shell, quakerstate, and valvoline, but they do indicate viscosity in cst at 100 C)
-conventional
kendall gt-1= 3.0
exxon superflo= 3.1
castrol GTX= 3.1
pennzoil= 3.1
Schaeffer #100= 3.2
citgo supergaurd= 3.2
-blends and high mileage
pennzoil blend= 3.0
castrol syntec blend= 3.1
kendall gt-1= 3.1
castrol high mileage= 3.3
pennzoil high mileage= 3.3
Schaeffer #701= 3.5
-synthetics
castrol syntec= 2.92
pennzoil= 3.07
mobil one= 3.08
kendall gt-1= 3.1
citgo superguard= 3.2
royal purple= 3.2
amsoil= 3.5
german syntec (0w-30)= 3.5
schaeffer #156= 3.8
redline= 3.8
all the 10w-30 motor oils have an equal or higher hths than the same brand in 5w-30. why not give castrol syntec 0w-30 a chance? its thicker than mobil 1 5w-30 at startup and at operating temp.:
(higher number = higher viscosity)
castrol syntec 0w-30: 65 cst @ 40 C, 11.6 cst @ 100 C.
-this is closer to a 10w-30 in terms of viscosity
mobil 1 5w-30: 56 @ 40 C, 10 @ 100 C.
mobil 1 10w-30: 62 @ 40 C, 10 @ 100 C.
mobil drive clean 5w-30: 62 @ 40 C, 10.5 @ 100 C.
castrol syntec 0w-30 has a pour point of -57 C.
mobil 1 5w-30 has a pour point of -45 C.
syntec 0w-30 also has a better viscosity index and flashpoint than mobil1 5w-30.
07-16-2004, 09:13 AM
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Re: (BERT-O)
The new oil was made for GM for a few reasons, i have know about this for a while now and thought it was discussed on here already.
GM need a oil to help break in there motors quicker and wanted them not to last as long to get people to buy new cars and or replacemeant motors.
We went over this when i went to school for my work.
GM need a oil to help break in there motors quicker and wanted them not to last as long to get people to buy new cars and or replacemeant motors.
We went over this when i went to school for my work.
10-02-2004, 11:38 AM
#19
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Re: (slofu)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slofu »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Generous Motors 
corporate greed, shady biz (as usual)
Chrycedes (MerceBishi) veneered yestertech / marketing / crap
phord </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol
corporate greed, shady biz (as usual)Chrycedes (MerceBishi)
veneered yestertech / marketing / crapphord
</TD></TR></TABLE>lol
10-02-2004, 02:55 PM
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Re: (BERT-O)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SUPERNATURAL »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i think you just asked a question that everyone was afraid to ask......
but lets try to keep it on track </TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't believe that you guys don't realize that his avatar is MR. CLEAN! Damn guys... Sorry off topic, anyways I find this thread to be EXTREMELY interesting and helpful. Thanks rocket, others, and j. davis
i think you just asked a question that everyone was afraid to ask......
but lets try to keep it on track </TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't believe that you guys don't realize that his avatar is MR. CLEAN! Damn guys... Sorry off topic, anyways I find this thread to be EXTREMELY interesting and helpful. Thanks rocket, others, and j. davis
10-02-2004, 03:24 PM
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Re: (chad174)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad174 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I can't believe that you guys don't realize that his avatar is MR. CLEAN! Damn guys... Sorry off topic, anyways I find this thread to be EXTREMELY interesting and helpful. Thanks rocket, others, and j. davis</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol, he was originally asking "thatonegirl"
on topic, thanks for the info rocket
I can't believe that you guys don't realize that his avatar is MR. CLEAN! Damn guys... Sorry off topic, anyways I find this thread to be EXTREMELY interesting and helpful. Thanks rocket, others, and j. davis</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol, he was originally asking "thatonegirl"
on topic, thanks for the info rocket
10-02-2004, 04:03 PM
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Re: (JL)
schaeffer i never heard of this brand oil before but it looks like it holds well compared to others, other then redline it had the highest in each category it was in.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BERT-O »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">btw, is that you on the avatar????????</TD></TR></TABLE>
ill second that
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BERT-O »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">btw, is that you on the avatar????????</TD></TR></TABLE>
ill second that
10-16-2004, 05:02 PM
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Re: Consequenses of New SL Rated Oils (EVOL)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EVOL »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">here's some info on why i like castrol 0w-30 (german, not north american)</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have been using this in my track car - no problems, no burning, no abnormal wear, even running 30-40 minutes in the summer with just hte OEM oil cooler (and running the heater).
I have been using this in my track car - no problems, no burning, no abnormal wear, even running 30-40 minutes in the summer with just hte OEM oil cooler (and running the heater).
10-16-2004, 06:21 PM
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Re: (BERT-O)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BERT-O »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so Rocket, why oil brand do you like using?</TD></TR></TABLE> i believe he likes using <U>astroglide</U>.. right Rocket? (i know your online....) 
(i know your online....)