Si Arn

I have recently gotten interested in sway bars. I hear that some want them in the rear of the car, but not the front...why is this? I have a 1998 Civic EX Coupe.

While searching I read sway bars changed the way peoples cars were so much that 2 guys crashed there cars. LOL what is it that they do to change the handling so much?

Why do I not want sway bars in the front and rear?

Is having strut tower braces a GOOD thing to have with sway bars? or a BAD thing?

ALSO... I read the term understeer coming up in virtually every sway bar thread. What does one do to avoid understeer with a sway bar? I read in some threads sway bars COUNTER understeer... and then in others I read sway bars changed the handling of cars so much the owners crashed them.

Thanks!


Modified by Si Arn at 4:21 AM 4/30/2004

ARIZONA

Functional sway bars provide a stiffer, more rigid chassis and suspension relationship. If you like to cut apex' and **** like that, than yeah they are good... If you are a straight line dragger... they are virtually dead weight except in exceptional cases.

Emong3

Civics came stock with a front sway bars already but none at the rear. (not sure about USDM) It counters body roll during cornering.

Si Arn

Why do some Civic owners NOT want aftermarket sway bars in the front... only in the rear?

Thanks for all comments btw!

rxse7n

Some guys are running just rears to reduce understeer, which is common with hondas. From what I have read, most of the guys that wrecked their cars with them were running a very large rear sway bar which caused them to oversteer and lose control. I just installed my front and rear sway bars today from a 95 integra. The rear is only 14mm, so I will be opting for the ITR rear which is a little over 20mm. I personally would not run just the ITR on the rear and no sway bar on the front because that would probably produce excessive oversteer. They can drastically change the handling of your car. I also have front and rear strut tower bars, front and rear lower tie bars, and the stock integra tie bar. Let me tell you, it starts making your chassis pretty stiff.

ARIZONA

Stock is probably more than sufficient for normal street use is my guess.

rxse7n

Not sure about other models, but my 93 dx hatch had no stock sway bar in front.

soundbomber

ok, to clear some things up.

The point of a sway bar is to transfer weight from one side of the car to the other during cornering by using a swaybar. because the swaybar is a part of your car, and is connected to the lower control arm along the subframe, when you corner and the inside of the car compresses, the swaybar will force the car to be flatter because it is splitting the cornering weight between both sides.

The reason that people don't want front swaybars is because they think that having only a rear will cause more oversteer. Generally, the rule for FF tuning says that a stiffer rear will make it step out during cornering more. I tend to disagree, having no front swaybar and a rear swaybar causes a LOT of body roll in the front. It never hurts to eliminate body roll while turning. The only situation i can see some understeer occuring is in auto-x where you have to take many sharp turns consecutively.

And not ALL civics came with front sway bars, I know my DX didn't. I'm currently running a 22 mm rear swaybar which is fun, but i'm waiting to get my Si front swaybar on. hope this clears it up for you.

Beatkidd

ONLY ABS equipt civic came with front sway

Si Arn

soundbomber thanks for info!

If I were to do this, I would have spirited daily driving in mind. Would going with a front AND a rear be the best bet here? Perhaps an Eibach set?

edit* I have ABS too btw, so I guess I have a sway in the front. But this would be replaced by the more performance oriented one.

rxse7n

Well said soundbomber. The guys just running rears do not look at the whole picture. If you want more understeer, run a larger rear sway bar and a smaller front, but keep one up front to reduce body roll. For example, a 22mm up front, and a 30mm in the rear. Just experiment until you find a combination you like. It defintely makes your car more fun to drive.

soundbomber

yea, generally the sets that are sold front and rear are matched to each other to give you the best performance. Personally, i went semi oem, i have an ITR 22 mm rear swaybar with a comptech tie bar to save my subframe from tearing and I'm getting the 26mm front swaybar from a 99-00 si. we'll see how it handles. if you take a look at how a swaybar works though, you'll understand. if the car is jacked up, you can lift one tire and see the tire on the other raise as well. swaybars are costly but are one of the most beneficial mods that can be done in terms of suspension next to a set of springs/shocks.

Si Arn

a tie bar... is that another word for strut tower brace or bar? So its a good idea to get one of them? If I were too do that... I would likely only get front. A rear goes right through your trunk doesnt it?

soundbomber

hmm, not really, a tie bar ties together your lower control arms and prevents flexing down there. A strut tower brace connects at the top of the shock to prevent movement and flexing up top. To me, none of those bars really do as much for you as a good set of swaybars. They do work though. I think a strut bar does more for you than a tie bar though. Just my opinion

rxse7n

Tie bar is below your trunk, a strut bar goes up top. They are two different things. BTW, I would recommend getting both the front and rear strut bars. The rear really helps tighten it up back there. Tie bars are a good idea too. They are the shiney thing you see below peoples rear bumpers between the wheels. For a front tie bar, you can get the stock Integra one for cheap and it bolts right on. I have that and a front tie bar, which is kinda overkill I guess.

NuSiEr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Beatkidd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ONLY ABS equipt civic came with front sway</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not true. my '00 Si didn't come with ABS

Street Ghost

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Beatkidd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ONLY ABS equipt civic came with front sway</TD></TR></TABLE>

You sound so confident in your statement. Do you have any PROOF??

Maybe you should do some research because my 93 EX Coupe has no ABS, but has a front sway bar.

Si Arn

ahh ok I understand kind of LOL. So yea a tie bar coupled with sway bars, simply, for the most part, protects against tearing your subframe, which would suck. Is this a rear only type of thing?

Bomber big thanks for all the info here!

soundbomber

no problem, not all rear tie bars protect your rear subframe. for the most part, only those that the swaybar bolts through protect the subframe. A good example is the comptech swaybar kit, or the srr 19mm.

rxse7n

Swaybars are something that a lot of people overlook, but they make the next biggest difference in handling after shocks/springs. A must have for someone that does spirited mountain driving like myself

delbeef

thanks soundbomber. sure cleared up a lot of wrong info. n0bs.

and yes a rear sway bar does not make you "lose control." ive been in raymond's car and his car handles quite well with just the rear sway and comptech tie bar.

92b16vx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM Ninja &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You sound so confident in your statement. Do you have any PROOF??

Maybe you should do some research because my 93 EX Coupe has no ABS, but has a front sway bar.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was under the impression that only the powersteering equipped models had front sways. It seems this would be logical. ABS don't have **** to do with it.

delbeef

Please only reply if you know what youre talking about.


Modified by delbeef at 7:47 AM 4/30/2004

Tyson

something i copy and pasted from a previous question related to swaybars, tie bars, strut bars and tie rods.
-------------------------------------------
ok, i really dont like the previous responses. first, i think we need to define what each item is you listed.

a swaybar is often called anti-roll(sway) bar, because that is more of what it does, preventing roll rather than promoting. its just easier to say swaybar. this item is a functional, active part of the suspension. ive not seen any swaybar, either front or rear or both, sold relatively cheaply on ebay. a swaybar connects the suspension of the two sides together and resists the independent motion of each. so if on one side, the wheel is being pushed down, the other wheel is being pushed down as well. same thing if one is going up, the other is pushed up. This will in effect add or subtract to the spring rate on the wheel when you need it most, during turning. it theoretically would not change anything when going straight over a speedbump when both wheels are moving the same amount. however youll feel the effect of the swaybar when one wheel goes over a pothole moreso because youve taken away fro mthe independent suspension. you can have a front swaybar connecting the two front wheels, or in the rear, or both.

a strut bar is a structural addition to the chassis. it is not a part of the suspension. however, it does resist unintented displacement of suspension points when the chassis is under handling forces. this actually is more important in cars with macphersion suspension where the suspension pushes a lateral force at the top of the strut mounted to the chassis. this is why its called a strut bar, even tho not all cars have struts. movement of the top strut anchor would mean an extra change in suspension geometry, basically camber, usually in a negative way. but it actually isnt so much of an effect with honda double wishbone suspension. the strut bar still does function as a structural member and helps maintain chassis rigidity.

a tie BAR is another structural member that is intended to resist any chassis flex. these are placed underneath the chassis and bolts to two points on the suspension, but not on a moving part. its just a chassis stiffener.

a tie ROD, as mentioned is part of the steering, most ppl will talk of tie rods as the actual tie rod END that is at the far ends of the steering rack and connects to the knuckle with a ball joint.

the part that will most affect how your car handles is going to be the swaybar, because its the only part that is an active member of the suspension. let me reiterate, a strut bar and tie bar are NOT part of the suspension, a sway bar IS. very general principles of handling are dictated by differences between front and rear traction. oversteer is a CONDITION (*1) where the front tires have RELATIVELY more grip than the rear, so during a turn the rear tires are going to slide out and have a bigger arc, think of a spinning car still moving in one direction basically as ultra extreme exampble. understeer is the opposite - the car does not want to rotate because the rears have more grip. general rule of suspension - stiffen the rear for oversteer, stiffen the front for understeer.

therefore, adding a swaybar to the front will PROMOTE A CONDITION of understeer. and conversely adding a rear swaybar will promote a condition of oversteer. adding both, well you get an all around stiffer car. i recommend the spring/shock setup you currently have, and then adding a rear swaybar. but i also would recommend that adding that front sway bar will give you that "riding on rails" feeling in handling. a lot of ppl seem to like that too. its up to you. you can get a kit and play with it to what you like. you can ask which one is better or "BEST" than the others, they all seem to work, some have adjustable positions. Suspension Techniques is a popular brand.

now theres a lot of cheap options for a front strut bar. when i added a NEUSPEED front strutbar to my otherwise stock CRX, i actually can say i notice a difference in handling, in a positive way it seemed. im not sure if the cheap ones work as well, as i havent tried. but why bother with cheap stuff. now, my opinion from other ppls feedback on REAR strutbars is that they are not useful and do not change anything. looks like it would really get in the way of the hatchspace anyway. doesnt seem worth it.

ive not added any tie bar to my car, my opinion is that either front or rear is unecessary. the crossmembers in the front and back are part of the strongest and most rigidly designed parts of the car. it seems its just flashy metal to me. not saying stock has no room for improvement, i just wouldnt get caught up with adding structural rigidity where its not needed as much. again, its not like it directly affects handling.

Footnotes:
(*1)i say condition because ANY car can be either be driven to a state of understeer or oversteer, without any change to the suspension. changing the suspension to alter the cars handling PROMOTES one condition or the other, but ppl who dont understand this think of cars with certain setups as "oversteer" or "understeer" when either is simply a state during the turn and is always changing in degree. its typical a car can exhibit corner ENTRY oversteer, and corner EXIT understeer. but that alone is dependent on HOW the driver actually drives the car into and out of the turn.

soundbomber

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by delbeef &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and yes a rear sway bar does not make you "lose control." ive been in raymond's car and his car handles quite well with just the rear sway and comptech tie bar. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Who the hell is raymond? sounds like a dumbass