Hoosiers, the unfair advantage?
10-24-2003, 01:10 PM
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Hoosiers, the unfair advantage?
A few of my friends and I have had this discussion on numerous occassions. Do people who race with have an unfair advantage? In a sense, does Hoosier have a monopoly? Now with the new version S4 tires, they resemble slicks even more than before.
On the grid, we are always curious to see who is driving what. All the top racers are using Hoosiers. The common theme is use Hoosiers if you want to win, use Toyos, Kumos, ect. if you want to save money. Why is it legal with our racing clubs for Hoosier to make these "slicks" versus more true to the defination DOT tires? And why don't Toyo or Kumo make a tire more like Hoosiers / slicks.
Another interesting thing. Take a look at the width of a 225 Hoosier and a 225 Kumo / Toyo. Funny that the Hoosier 225 is like the 225s of other tire manufacturers. Not sure that it really matters, but just an observance.
I was using Kumos this past year. Now with the new "longer lasting" Hoosier tires, I'll be switching as well. Just can't afford to give up that extra time to my fellow racers.
Any ideas on how to level the playing field?
On the grid, we are always curious to see who is driving what. All the top racers are using Hoosiers. The common theme is use Hoosiers if you want to win, use Toyos, Kumos, ect. if you want to save money. Why is it legal with our racing clubs for Hoosier to make these "slicks" versus more true to the defination DOT tires? And why don't Toyo or Kumo make a tire more like Hoosiers / slicks.
Another interesting thing. Take a look at the width of a 225 Hoosier and a 225 Kumo / Toyo. Funny that the Hoosier 225 is like the 225s of other tire manufacturers. Not sure that it really matters, but just an observance.
I was using Kumos this past year. Now with the new "longer lasting" Hoosier tires, I'll be switching as well. Just can't afford to give up that extra time to my fellow racers.
Any ideas on how to level the playing field?
10-24-2003, 01:14 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (granracing)
i dont think there is any "unfair"-ness at all. they dont sell em exclusively to the top runners. you have the choice to buy em if you want em. its nothing more unfair than having the money to buy a well built "stock" engine, or better shocks. you can try to limit things by defining what "stock" is, or the number of shock adjustments, but as you see, ppl will spend money.
i think the reason hoosiers may end up being better of all the option is simply because they are in the business of making a race tire, only. kumho and toyo are regular tire companies.
i think the reason hoosiers may end up being better of all the option is simply because they are in the business of making a race tire, only. kumho and toyo are regular tire companies.
10-24-2003, 01:41 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (granracing)
Racing will always yield an advantage to whoever has more $$$. Autocrossing is a fine example of how crazy things can get in a "stock" class.
Even in Spec Miata when everything is spec'ed there are winner $15k engines and cheaper non-winner engines.
Just remember, what you lack in money, make up for in skill.
Even in Spec Miata when everything is spec'ed there are winner $15k engines and cheaper non-winner engines.
Just remember, what you lack in money, make up for in skill.
10-24-2003, 01:49 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (Geratol)
Two words.
CLAIM RULE
The great equalizer. If the front runner spends 2 times as much as the next guy, then the next guy just has to write a check at the end of the race to own the car.
Scott
CLAIM RULE
The great equalizer. If the front runner spends 2 times as much as the next guy, then the next guy just has to write a check at the end of the race to own the car.
Scott
10-24-2003, 02:40 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (granracing)
The whole point is to be faster than everyone else, whether you are a racer, engineer, engine builder, or tire manufacturer. It's called racing.
It MIGHT be considered an unfair advantage - in the context of club racing - if a manufacturer built a tire and only supplied it to one driver but we all have the option of stepping up.
K
It MIGHT be considered an unfair advantage - in the context of club racing - if a manufacturer built a tire and only supplied it to one driver but we all have the option of stepping up.
K
10-24-2003, 02:44 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (Geratol)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Geratol »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Just remember, what you lack in money, make up for in skill.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats my whole theory in racing and what I base my personal goals of racing on.
Just remember, what you lack in money, make up for in skill.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats my whole theory in racing and what I base my personal goals of racing on.
10-24-2003, 03:33 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (ryan12321)
Ok guys. Say next year Goodyear comes out with their new "can't drive on the road DOT" tire. It costs $1000 a tire and lasts one race. The tire will be available to everyone and is good for a 2 second advantage at most race tracks over any other tire. Will the SCCA finally at that point refuse to allow them? Or will the membership continue with the "competition is good" chant?
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10-24-2003, 03:34 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (Jake)
Personally, I think Hoosier has seen the writting on the wall with all of the new Spec Tire catagories that have come about because of the Hoosier costs and has released a tire that lasts longer. Or at least that's what I hope.
10-24-2003, 04:57 PM
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Honestly, what is the point of some clubs requiring that you run DOT tires? If you can run Hoosiers "DOT" tire, why can't you run good year eagle slicks?
I'm not looking for the technical defination, but what makes the tire DOT approved? To me, Kumos, Toyos, ect. fit the true defination of a DOT tire. Like previously stated, Hoosier the tires for strictly racing purposes. Doesn't this get away from the point of requiring a DOT tire? Maybe it doesn't; don't know.
I do wish there were a few other companies that were on the same playing field as Hoosiers. Not that I have anything against Hoosier. I think it is cool that they are American made. Oops. Did I just say that on a Honda forum? (just kidding)
What was the issue I remember hearing about Hoosier and the DOT approval rating? If I remember accurately, the DOT was looking into Hoosiers and determining if they really are DOT approved.
I'm certainly not saying that anyone is cheating by using Hoosiers either...
I'm not looking for the technical defination, but what makes the tire DOT approved? To me, Kumos, Toyos, ect. fit the true defination of a DOT tire. Like previously stated, Hoosier the tires for strictly racing purposes. Doesn't this get away from the point of requiring a DOT tire? Maybe it doesn't; don't know.
I do wish there were a few other companies that were on the same playing field as Hoosiers. Not that I have anything against Hoosier. I think it is cool that they are American made. Oops. Did I just say that on a Honda forum? (just kidding)
What was the issue I remember hearing about Hoosier and the DOT approval rating? If I remember accurately, the DOT was looking into Hoosiers and determining if they really are DOT approved.
I'm certainly not saying that anyone is cheating by using Hoosiers either...
10-24-2003, 05:37 PM
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Re: (granracing)
Hoosier's old tire and new tire are DOT approved, just like the Kumhos, Toyos, etc.
You sir, are spouting bullshit. I'll now tell you why I think this...
The Hoosier is wider - Yes it is. Damned those Hoosier guys, how dare they make a wider tire!!! How UNFAIR!!! We certainly wouldn't expect Kumho or Toyo to make their tires wider to match Hoosiers advantage now would we?
The Hoosier is stickier - Again, what a bunch of bastards!!! How dare they put the time and the development into building a dominant tire!!! Why, they should study the carcasses of their competition and match their products. The nerve of building a superior product!!! What a bunch of ********.
The Hoosier has no availability issues (as both Toyo and Kumho have) - Now that just does it!!! How can we stand back and watch these MONSTERS build tires that are wider, stickier, and always available. Somebody really needs to put an end to this nightmare as aoon as possible!!!
Sorry for the rant (actually, I'm not) but you really need to grab a clue. It amazes me that Hoosier goes to the trouble and expense to supply us, the racers, with a superior product and all many racers ever do is bitch about it. Thats one of the dumbest damn things I've ever heard in my life. I guess everyone would be happier if Hoosier developed a mediocre, cheap tire. Yeah, that makes sense.
As Tyson mentioned, it'd be unfair if they weren't available to anyone that wanted them, but the irony here is that Hoosier is typically the MOST available and easy to obtain of all the DOT tires. Maybe they are an advantage, but there's certainly nothing unfair about them. If you want some, buy them. Otherwise save a few bucks on a slower tire and quietly enjoy the hell out of your 6th place finish.
Scott, who will spend the extra $20 per tire to be as competitive as possible.
You sir, are spouting bullshit. I'll now tell you why I think this...
The Hoosier is wider - Yes it is. Damned those Hoosier guys, how dare they make a wider tire!!! How UNFAIR!!! We certainly wouldn't expect Kumho or Toyo to make their tires wider to match Hoosiers advantage now would we?
The Hoosier is stickier - Again, what a bunch of bastards!!! How dare they put the time and the development into building a dominant tire!!! Why, they should study the carcasses of their competition and match their products. The nerve of building a superior product!!! What a bunch of ********.
The Hoosier has no availability issues (as both Toyo and Kumho have) - Now that just does it!!! How can we stand back and watch these MONSTERS build tires that are wider, stickier, and always available. Somebody really needs to put an end to this nightmare as aoon as possible!!!
Sorry for the rant (actually, I'm not) but you really need to grab a clue. It amazes me that Hoosier goes to the trouble and expense to supply us, the racers, with a superior product and all many racers ever do is bitch about it. Thats one of the dumbest damn things I've ever heard in my life. I guess everyone would be happier if Hoosier developed a mediocre, cheap tire. Yeah, that makes sense.
As Tyson mentioned, it'd be unfair if they weren't available to anyone that wanted them, but the irony here is that Hoosier is typically the MOST available and easy to obtain of all the DOT tires. Maybe they are an advantage, but there's certainly nothing unfair about them. If you want some, buy them. Otherwise save a few bucks on a slower tire and quietly enjoy the hell out of your 6th place finish.
Scott, who will spend the extra $20 per tire to be as competitive as possible.
10-24-2003, 05:53 PM
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Re: (Catch 22)
Maybe some of you should have a look at the new Kumho 710!
You can find out a bit more about it here http://www.vcmc.ca/ubb/ultimat...00019
And here http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-...00176
You can find out a bit more about it here http://www.vcmc.ca/ubb/ultimat...00019
And here http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-...00176
10-24-2003, 05:59 PM
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Re: (granracing)
What Scott said x2.
BTW- Those who say Hoosiers cost too much... Have you tried checking the price on RA1 Toyos lately?..... anyone else notice how they have gone up 30.00 bucks (per) in the last couple of years? I have. Toyos, Hoosiers, Hankooks and Kumhos are all within a few bucks.
John- who will not run second rate tires or brake pads on his race car. PERIOD.
BTW- Those who say Hoosiers cost too much... Have you tried checking the price on RA1 Toyos lately?..... anyone else notice how they have gone up 30.00 bucks (per) in the last couple of years? I have. Toyos, Hoosiers, Hankooks and Kumhos are all within a few bucks.
John- who will not run second rate tires or brake pads on his race car. PERIOD.
10-24-2003, 06:50 PM
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Re: (JohnW)
I'll edit what I said in my first post. I was mistaken, you are not spouting bullshit, you just don't understand what you're talking about. As evidenced in your 2nd post.
A DOT approval is attained from the Department Of Transportation. Basically all it states is that the DOT certifies the tire as OK to use on the street. Thats the definition of a DOT tire.
Have you ever seen a Toyo or Kumho ecsta shaved to 1/32 or 2/32???
I have, quite often. They "look" just as much like a slick as the Hoosier and certainly don't last any longer. They are shaved down this low by guys who MUST use them (ex: spec miata) to get as much of an advantage as possible.
A DOT approval is attained from the Department Of Transportation. Basically all it states is that the DOT certifies the tire as OK to use on the street. Thats the definition of a DOT tire.
Have you ever seen a Toyo or Kumho ecsta shaved to 1/32 or 2/32???
I have, quite often. They "look" just as much like a slick as the Hoosier and certainly don't last any longer. They are shaved down this low by guys who MUST use them (ex: spec miata) to get as much of an advantage as possible.
10-24-2003, 06:52 PM
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Re: (JohnW)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnW »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Have you tried checking the price on RA1 Toyos lately?..... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not to mention that you have to get them shaved. Assuming of course that you can get them in the first place.
Not to mention that you have to get them shaved. Assuming of course that you can get them in the first place.
10-24-2003, 06:53 PM
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Re: (JohnW)
Hoosiers don't cost too much, they just don't last long enough. I hope that will change with the new compound.
BTW - Just for the record, DOT approval is very easy. The DOT rules haven't been adjusted since 1968 when tires were all Bias Ply.
BTW - Just for the record, DOT approval is very easy. The DOT rules haven't been adjusted since 1968 when tires were all Bias Ply.
10-24-2003, 06:57 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (Jake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... Say next year Goodyear comes out with their new "can't drive on the road DOT" tire. ...?</TD></TR></TABLE>
People have been making these noises for the 20+ years that I've been involved with club racing. The H-rated tire is going to make showroom stock racing too expensive! 14" tires are too expensive so everyone should run 13" wheels!! 50-series tires are fine on exotic cars but don't have a place in club racing!!!
Heck, the Hoosier Street TD bias ply was going to make every other tire made obsolete the season it was introduced in the mid '80s...
K
People have been making these noises for the 20+ years that I've been involved with club racing. The H-rated tire is going to make showroom stock racing too expensive! 14" tires are too expensive so everyone should run 13" wheels!! 50-series tires are fine on exotic cars but don't have a place in club racing!!!
Heck, the Hoosier Street TD bias ply was going to make every other tire made obsolete the season it was introduced in the mid '80s...
K
10-24-2003, 08:16 PM
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Re: (DB1-R81)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DB1-R81 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe some of you should have a look at the new Kumho 710!
You can find out a bit more about it here http://www.vcmc.ca/ubb/ultimat...00019
And here http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-...00176 </TD></TR></TABLE>
If its faster than the Hoosier, comes in my sizes, not outrageously priced (like $250 each) and readily available I will use it. I'm not an avid Hoosier supporter, but I am a supporter of the best, most available, and correctly sized tire. That happens to be the Hoosier product right now.
You can find out a bit more about it here http://www.vcmc.ca/ubb/ultimat...00019
And here http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-...00176 </TD></TR></TABLE>
If its faster than the Hoosier, comes in my sizes, not outrageously priced (like $250 each) and readily available I will use it. I'm not an avid Hoosier supporter, but I am a supporter of the best, most available, and correctly sized tire. That happens to be the Hoosier product right now.
10-24-2003, 08:50 PM
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Re: (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to mention that you have to get them shaved. Assuming of course that you can get them in the first place.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm...yes. As someone who runs Toyos (although in a school environement) I gots some data points.
I found Toyos no problem (205-55-14) at the start of the season. Even got them shaved at the advice of H-T regulars. They were not cheap (~$160 per delivered). "No problem" I said, "I'll get *all* year out of them." 5 track weekends later (July!!!!), I'm on the phone with Appalachain Tire, again. "Yeah, send me a few more of those, please."
Although I am pleased that they were increadibly consistent from new until cord, and from lap 1 to lap 15 every time.
Now that these new Hoosiers are reported to be more durable at marginal (if that) extra cost, my next purchase will be Hoosier. You damn right.
Matt<--getting *** kicked in solo1 by guys on Hoosiers....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm...yes. As someone who runs Toyos (although in a school environement) I gots some data points.
I found Toyos no problem (205-55-14) at the start of the season. Even got them shaved at the advice of H-T regulars. They were not cheap (~$160 per delivered). "No problem" I said, "I'll get *all* year out of them." 5 track weekends later (July!!!!), I'm on the phone with Appalachain Tire, again. "Yeah, send me a few more of those, please."
Although I am pleased that they were increadibly consistent from new until cord, and from lap 1 to lap 15 every time.
Now that these new Hoosiers are reported to be more durable at marginal (if that) extra cost, my next purchase will be Hoosier. You damn right.
Matt<--getting *** kicked in solo1 by guys on Hoosiers....
10-24-2003, 09:46 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (granracing)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The common theme is use Hoosiers if you want to win, use Toyos, Kumos, ect. if you want to save money. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Some counter points to that. First of all, IMO that common theme is so popular because it's very convenient for anybody who happens to be seconds off the pace per lap and not running hoosiers to justify their performance.
The fact is that the difference is in a few tenths of a second at best per lap. This is good for 1 or maybe 2 spots further up a qualifying grid. It’s certainly not the main reason for finishing a race almost half a lap behind the class leader. Although there is a difference between the Hoosier and the Toyo RA1, it's *much* smaller than most people think. To back up this claim, we got seven poles and six wins out of nine total races this year, as well as winning a championship. All this on 6 shaved RA1s that I bought at the beginning of the year, which still have currently 1/3 life left too. So it's certainly possible to be a front runner on a very strict tire budget, simply because this huge advantage that Hoosiers are perceived to have over anything else is nothing but huge by any means.
Secondly, Hoosiers have a slight edge over other tires only in their first and second heat cycles. After that they are even in performance to a shaved RA1 at best, and once they loose their “stick”, someone on RA1s can then run circle around you. So although 3/4 of the grid may be on Hoosiers, only a few of them actually may be benefiting slightly by having new tires.
Having said that, it's fair to point out that I will be on new s04s for the upcoming ARRC (thanks to contingencies!) because once a year we do make the effort to find all those extra few tenths that we can. But I'll say it again, the perceived unfair advantage is grossly exaggerated and I can only attribute it to what I wrote in the first paragraph.
Some counter points to that. First of all, IMO that common theme is so popular because it's very convenient for anybody who happens to be seconds off the pace per lap and not running hoosiers to justify their performance.
The fact is that the difference is in a few tenths of a second at best per lap. This is good for 1 or maybe 2 spots further up a qualifying grid. It’s certainly not the main reason for finishing a race almost half a lap behind the class leader. Although there is a difference between the Hoosier and the Toyo RA1, it's *much* smaller than most people think. To back up this claim, we got seven poles and six wins out of nine total races this year, as well as winning a championship. All this on 6 shaved RA1s that I bought at the beginning of the year, which still have currently 1/3 life left too. So it's certainly possible to be a front runner on a very strict tire budget, simply because this huge advantage that Hoosiers are perceived to have over anything else is nothing but huge by any means.
Secondly, Hoosiers have a slight edge over other tires only in their first and second heat cycles. After that they are even in performance to a shaved RA1 at best, and once they loose their “stick”, someone on RA1s can then run circle around you. So although 3/4 of the grid may be on Hoosiers, only a few of them actually may be benefiting slightly by having new tires.
Having said that, it's fair to point out that I will be on new s04s for the upcoming ARRC (thanks to contingencies!) because once a year we do make the effort to find all those extra few tenths that we can. But I'll say it again, the perceived unfair advantage is grossly exaggerated and I can only attribute it to what I wrote in the first paragraph.
10-25-2003, 05:14 AM
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Re: (Jake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hoosiers don't cost too much, they just don't last long enough. I hope that will change with the new compound.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I and others who follow the Hoosier break-in procedures don't have the massive drop off in performance that many report.
The Hoosier directions are 3 pages long and I really don't have the interest in typing all of them. However, they do talk at length about "The initial Run", "cure time" and "not shocking the tire".
Most racers buy 4 new Hoosiers and they fail to break them in properly. Yeah, they are fast as hell for a couple sessions then become crap. This is due to poor tire maintenance not Hoosier quality.
I start the year with 8 stickers, use a test day to break both sets in and follow the DIRECTIONS!!! Though-out the year I may order a couple of new ones for a big event... just so I get that extra couple of tenths and piece of mind.
John- who doesn't understand why bedding break pads is so important and not 'bedding' in new tires?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I and others who follow the Hoosier break-in procedures don't have the massive drop off in performance that many report.
The Hoosier directions are 3 pages long and I really don't have the interest in typing all of them. However, they do talk at length about "The initial Run", "cure time" and "not shocking the tire".
Most racers buy 4 new Hoosiers and they fail to break them in properly. Yeah, they are fast as hell for a couple sessions then become crap. This is due to poor tire maintenance not Hoosier quality.
I start the year with 8 stickers, use a test day to break both sets in and follow the DIRECTIONS!!! Though-out the year I may order a couple of new ones for a big event... just so I get that extra couple of tenths and piece of mind.
John- who doesn't understand why bedding break pads is so important and not 'bedding' in new tires?
10-25-2003, 07:06 AM
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Re: (JohnW)
Alex's post (hracer) is dead on. Yes, the Hoosier is faster, but not by much. Heck, on same tracks like Roebling road (which is tough on front tires in a FWD car) the Toyo is a better choice because it holds up better from start to finish of a race. I've run both Hoosiers and Toyos there (same car, same day, same driver) and been faster and more consistent on Toyos.
Ya know, I might actually use Toyos for regional races (like Alex does) and just "splurge" on Hoosiers for the ARRC... No, wait... I can't do that because Toyo hasn't felt the need to build a tire in my size (which includes everyone in ITC and IT7 and some people in ITA and ITB).
And to go along with John's note, I bought 8 Hoosiers in February and properly heat cycled them. I used those same 8 tires the entire year (5 weekends - 8 races) and 2 of them still show the ghost treads. They were working fine in race #8 when I finished 2nd and posted my fastest Road Atlanta laps of the year. I plan to store them and use them again at the beginning of next year.
Theres lots and lots of information on tires out there. Unfortunately not all of it is true and plenty of it is well travelled excuses from racers that get their asses kicked alot.
Ya know, I might actually use Toyos for regional races (like Alex does) and just "splurge" on Hoosiers for the ARRC... No, wait... I can't do that because Toyo hasn't felt the need to build a tire in my size (which includes everyone in ITC and IT7 and some people in ITA and ITB).
And to go along with John's note, I bought 8 Hoosiers in February and properly heat cycled them. I used those same 8 tires the entire year (5 weekends - 8 races) and 2 of them still show the ghost treads. They were working fine in race #8 when I finished 2nd and posted my fastest Road Atlanta laps of the year. I plan to store them and use them again at the beginning of next year.
Theres lots and lots of information on tires out there. Unfortunately not all of it is true and plenty of it is well travelled excuses from racers that get their asses kicked alot.
10-25-2003, 09:18 AM
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Re: (JohnW)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnW »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...John- who doesn't understand why bedding break pads is so important and not 'bedding' in new tires?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Uhm, because when you don't properly bed in a set of pads you will find yourself with NO BRAKES. Not that scrubbing in tires is unimportant - that's important too. Just not as.
Scott, who scrubs in Hoosier R3S03's properly and still finds that they don't have a flat performance curve over their life...
Uhm, because when you don't properly bed in a set of pads you will find yourself with NO BRAKES. Not that scrubbing in tires is unimportant - that's important too. Just not as.
Scott, who scrubs in Hoosier R3S03's properly and still finds that they don't have a flat performance curve over their life...
10-25-2003, 10:08 AM
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Re: (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
...finds that they don't have a flat performance curve over their life...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Very correct. But proper heat cycling is the difference between getting good performance for 2 races or 4 races (including qualifying).
I'll start another thread on what I have found extends R3S03 life and helps maintain the tire budget.
...finds that they don't have a flat performance curve over their life...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Very correct. But proper heat cycling is the difference between getting good performance for 2 races or 4 races (including qualifying).
I'll start another thread on what I have found extends R3S03 life and helps maintain the tire budget.
10-25-2003, 05:21 PM
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Re: Hoosiers, the unfair advantage? (Hracer)
Originally Posted by Hracer
Some counter points to that. First of all, IMO that common theme is so popular because it's very convenient for anybody who happens to be seconds off the pace per lap and not running hoosiers to justify their performance.
The fact is that the difference is in a few tenths of a second at best per lap. This is good for 1 or maybe 2 spots further up a qualifying grid. ItÂ’s certainly not the main reason for finishing a race almost half a lap behind the class leader. Although there is a difference between the Hoosier and the Toyo RA1, it's *much* smaller than most people think. To back up this claim, we got seven poles and six wins out of nine total races this year, as well as winning a championship. All this on 6 shaved RA1s that I bought at the beginning of the year, which still have currently 1/3 life left too. So it's certainly possible to be a front runner on a very strict tire budget, simply because this huge advantage that Hoosiers are perceived to have over anything else is nothing but huge by any means.
Secondly, Hoosiers have a slight edge over other tires only in their first and second heat cycles. After that they are even in performance to a shaved RA1 at best, and once they loose their “stick”, someone on RA1s can then run circle around you. So although 3/4 of the grid may be on Hoosiers, only a few of them actually may be benefiting slightly by having new tires.
Having said that, it's fair to point out that I will be on new s04s for the upcoming ARRC (thanks to contingencies!) because once a year we do make the effort to find all those extra few tenths that we can. But I'll say it again, the perceived unfair advantage is grossly exaggerated and I can only attribute it to what I wrote in the first paragraph.
In my experince a properly set-up car with Hoosiers will have a distinct (1-2 second advantage) over a properly set-up car on Toyos or Kumhos. Understand that by "properly" I'm talking about in relation to what the tire needs to work optimally. Generally this amounts to camber and tire pressures but can include spring rates and shock settings as well. Keep in mind that each tire brand has not only compound differenceds but significant differences in sidewall construction, etc. All of this must be accounted for in order to get the best out of any given tire.
The only way you will ever notice any significant difference is to test, test, test, and test some more.
I've run cars on BFG G-forces, Hoosier Bias plys and radials, Kumho Victoracers, and Toyo T1-S's & RA1's. The Hooser's biggest advantage is that they not only have better grip overall but that they also are easier to run at the limit than an RA-1 or Victoracer. By comparison, the G-force was absolute crap most of the time and downright scary on the first heat cycle. Toyo's do wear better regardless of break-in and stay more consistent over their life time, the only "problem" is that they are a little bit more dicey feeling when you run them hard.
Face it, there IS a reason Hoosier dominates the DOT tire market. It's not just wide availability of sizes and it certainly isn't the price. I've always thought of Hoosier as a race tire company that happens to make street tires on the side (all the other manufacturers are just the opposite). Nobody puts the time and effort into the DOT race tire market that Hoosier does. This isn't really "unfair," it's just that Toyo, Kumho, etc. do this kind of stuff as more of an afterthought. The only "problem" with Hoosiers relative to other tires is the wear curve.
The intriguing thing for the new tires is how the new tires will work. Reportedly, they are somewhat heavier which may outweigh some of their advantages. IF they seem to wear as well as the RA-1's do now (and provide equal or better grip), I might become interested. If I can manage to get a hold of the "spec miata" tires at $142 a whack I might be REALLY interested!
