bambooluv

Due to the unbelievable enadequite oil pump of the h22 motor im thinking of running a dry sump setup on my car. I have a ton of question I hpe you guys can help me out with . I know thatI have to buy the external oil pump external oil filter relocator and a block plate at the oil filter to collect the oil but my question is because morso just recently made the mount for the b series for the pump drive how hard would it be to custom mount this baby to my factory ac mount (or custom made mount and get it to run off my factory pulley. -And im just not secure at least in my head with oil pump gear from pro drive wich i alreay have-other than this i could just try to run an external pump any ideas-pdang

dry sump pump


wet sump ( just an external pump )


dry sump drawing



thanks guys-pdang

b19coupe

Yeah, I would like to know too. Where can you buy the system, and how much ?

79 civic

It has been done for years on hondas.
L'natural will be running this soon, I think a Barnes pump.
If you plan on doing this yourself, makesure that you get a counter-rotating pump.
Look for Don Flores on the board. He's in FL and has done setups for Almost all popular honda blocks. I think that you will spend between 1200-1600.

genius

you'll need:
part#-desc.
25630-dry sump rev. pump.......949.99
23497-mounting kit(pump).........59.99
25710-pump drive kit.................229.99
20903-dry sump oil pan(b18)......449.99
22665-dry sump oil tank.............379.99
22676-tank mount kit..................92.99
85470-tank breather...................67.95
23815-filter block off...................59.99
23766-remote oil filter mount.......105.99
22459-moroso oil filter.................12.99
TOTAL................................2409.90
this is not including fittings or lines(another $300)
prices are for b series pieces.

kb58

Finally someone discussing H22 drysumps! Good. I'm in the same boat and have been doing research for a while. Why do you need one? Have you considered an Accusump? (do a Google search) it's basically a pressurized oil reserve and Much cheaper (around $300.)

My car (in sig) is going to pull over 1G and I've found no one who is using a H22 drysump system to tell me it it's really needed. I'm very concerned I'm going to be sucking air in corners, but I can't find anyone who's "been there done that."

For those of you wondering why anyone would spend $1500-$2400 just for an oil system, here's why:

1. NEVER get air in your oil system.
2. Decreases windage losses (oil whipped by the crank.)
3. Draws a vacuum in the crankcase.
4. The oil pan is much smaller, so you can now lower the engine.
5. Eliminate air entrainment.

#2 and #3 can free up 10% more power, no kidding...

Peterson says they'll be soon releasing a complete H22 system. I didn't know about Moroso, so I'll wait and see. I really hope I don't need one... expensive, more crap to leak, heavier, more stuff to break.

We'll see.

bambooluv

Well the reason i want one is one and most importantly i have spent boat loads of money on my car and dont want the whole thing craping out because of a faulty oil pump when I talked to greg ( stephs crew chief ) he had told me that he was getting by with just the pro drive pump gear but talking to others in my boat there factory and or pro drive pumps have gave out . Its more insurance than anything that im doing this the only other personI know really well that has done this is Lance with toyomoto on the hp car . He just has a wet sump system . but hopefully there can be someone with more info but i appreciate the help kb58 im gonna look into what you have suggested -thanks-pdang

b19coupe

10% more power? So if I am putting 200 to the wheels, a dry sump could bump me to 220 ? Count me in.

earl

I would think that it would cost you horse power to spin that big old pump so I find it hard to believe you can get a 10% increase. I do believe the vacuum in the pan does help ring seal and oil control. However, I'm not speaking from experience, just an opinion

earl

BTW, pdang, I had a guy offer me a dry sump system for a h22 (he just switched to a S2000). I just can't get a hold of him for more info. He would not give me a price but I told him I wanted it just because. If I hear from him, I will let you know. He was using it on a sand rail. I met him once but now it's kind of third hand communication, if any. Not sure how motivated he is.

bambooluv

thnx earl if you hear from him anymore just let me know.

hondaswaper

if you have the $$$ go for it.........it might save your motor someday.....

bigTom

as far as a b-series goes:

the wet-sump system (simply the external pump) is the better way to go... the dry sump system is not needed for the b-series as far as im concerned. look at it this way... one major factor in why people get the dry-sumps for numerous cars is because many times the crank itself just hits the oil in the pan... obviously isnt beneficial for power. the b-series motor though and its crank does not sit in the oil... a dry-sump would essentially be rendered useless...

true it will increase rankcase vacumm and a gain will be possibly seen from using it, but then again look at the size of the dry-sump pump and because it is not a single stage pump; having numerous stages, this will in turn rob power from the motor. fill a pan up with the correct amount of oil, dry the crank and spin in by hand and see if it splashes up on the crank with the oil pan in place...

as far as h-series motor go im not sure... i have some sitting at my shop so that actually is something im gonna look into as i havent thought about the external oiling systems for the h-series motor yet.

the wet sump system though imo is a good investemt. i have "heard" that many people have been breaking the pro-drive gears... granted they break under extreme condition but this is what we're talking about here... correct? to my knowledge the external pump will not break. a single stage pump as opposed to a multi-stage pump will also rob less power from the motor. the wet-sump pump is also a must cheaper alternative to the dry-sump. i know one person well who has been using the wet-sump pump for some time now and he has had no problems whatsoever to my knowledge.

as far as makeing a bracket for the pump it can be done easily with the right machinery... i made some brackets for a b-series motor before moroso came out with theirs... but then the problem was getting moroso to sell me a pump that spins in reverse... the only tricky part can be makeing a pulley (ex... the gilmer belt pulley) adapt to a stock pulley... and no i would not reccomend using a pulley without any teeth such as a p/s or a/c type belt... i dont think u could trust an oil pump with that at 9-10k rpm

bambooluv

thnx ek9t , yeah thats the way i was leaning toward just the wet sump system similar to the one on lances car as far as wha you mentioned about the oil pump the one they make now is ok to utilize if i went with a custom bracket correct once again thnx for all the help guys-pdang

Ill try getting some pics up sometime this week of my chassis almost there

bigTom

moroso now makes one that will spin in reverse (welll i never understood why the old one couldnt spin in reverse... whatever though) if u can make the brackets and all it will work fine... make a custom bracket... then u can make it the way u want it... just make sure u compensate for the length of belt u are going to use and the belts dont exactly come in all sizes at least if ur going to use the gilmer belt.... as long as the pump is stationary u should have no problems... oh and make sure the belt lines up perfectly from the pulley on the pump to the pulley on the crank or cam... wherever u may choose to put it

bambooluv

ek9t let me get this straight if I was to run the wet pump system i would get the block off plate or a fitting that fits in the factory location of the oil filter. Than run lines from it to a remote oil filter mount and route that to the pump and have the outlet of the pump go to the oil pan correct ? also where on the oil pan should i weld the fitting at Im guessing near the top similar to the oil return for turbo right ?
As far as a drive for the pump all i would need is the gear drive for the pump and the belt ? if i got the teethed belt will it work with the factory crank pulley thanks for all the help man-pdang


[Modified by bambooluv, 12:52 AM 12/2/2002]

turbohonda

The outlet of the pump goes to the remote filter and I am assuming the inlet of the pump (pick up) would go near the bottom of the pan like the factory pickup. Then a line goes from the remote filter to the filter block off plate and fitting. The only part of this system that I can't figure out is how you would block oil pressure where the stock oil pump housing usually feeds the block? Does any one know?

b19coupe

I thought that the B-series crank did sit in the oil. Thus power loss from windage and a reason for knife edging the crank or going to a dry sump. Wow, this is food for thought...

earl

Just curious, on an external oil pump system, what happens if you throw or break the oil pump drive belt?

b19coupe

Rhetorical question?

Gmedalion

good questiuon, any1?

earl

I always wondered what would happen if you were slightly out of align with your custom made mounting bracket but it only would throw the belt over 9000 rpm. How do you test for that possibility?

CHEETAH

iTrader: (2)

hey, try to consider the moroso wet setup, Ralphy at DRTRacing has been using the prototype on his racecar for at least 2 years, I'm sure the setup is in production now, the cog belt is driven by an adapter which attaches to the exhaust side cam pulley and drives the oil pump,
LOL 80psi when its hot at IDLE

this was his answer after breaking 5 motors from oil pump failure ... the guys at Moroso helped him build it and made the oil pan with pickup custom for it also ...

also, if its for drag racing (pro class), dry sump is not allowed, for two reasons 1) no pump of anysort which hampers crankcase vacuum 2) no dry sump system. Maybe you're a road racing dude which doesnt apply.

Oh, consider modifying and upgrading your stock h22a pump, get a new one from the dealer and send it to Endyn, thats what I do and it works great for 12 KRPM runs.

Greg

Gmedalion

I believe Gary Gardella is using a dry sump.

kb58

I probably should have said, "5-10%. It depends on a lot of things how much gain you get...

bambooluv

yeah i was deffinetly leaning more on the wet sump side just something so i dont have to rely entirly on the factory pump.thnaks guys-pdang