BrakeExpert

-- EK (96-00 Honda Civic) Brake Upgrades -
(and Information on all 88-00 Civics / 90-01 Integras)


FRONT BRAKES OF YOUR 96-00 CIVIC

Prelude
Okay, there are too many questions, and I see too many people giving WRONG answers. Here I have collected brake setup information based on fact, experience, and no, I don’t accept a setup as proof without a picture of it. I will list interchangeable parts, and talk about what myths are real, and which are not.

For these upgrades, I will refer to SIMILAR, not EXACT parts. Meaning the part may not be 100% identical, but has all of the same characteristics to make it interchangeable, and function the same. Such is the case with 95 Civic Si ABS front knuckles and 95 Integra GS front knuckles. May not be the same part number, but the dimensions make it interchangable 100%. Some other parts MAY work, but I'm listing what I KNOW will work.

CIVIC BRAKES

I have made a chart to simplify "what can I do to my car?" Well first would be make sure its in OEM running condition, and then get good pads/fluid/rotors. This is a list of OEM Honda brake upgrades. After the chart is a desription of how to attain those brakes. Then I mention about upgrading master cylinders to cope with the increased caliper piston requiring more fluid to move the same amount.

Many people assume, and make up ****. This chart I have here is all factual, and I will not add a brake system to it without pictures as proof.

At the bottom, I am talking about theory, and you can get numbers and debate all day about what you FEEL is better, but I will tell you, with cast iron rotors, and the same pad material, what brake setup is best. Stainless lines affect pedal feel, a bigger MC makes the brakes firmer, and we can discuss that, but given all OEM parts used on the car, this is how you make your brake system better. First get good tires, then good pads, then look into these OEM upgrades. I will not compare aftermarket calipers to OEM calipers, some are good, and some aftermarket setups are worse and more expensive than some of these OEM setups.

Please bump this if you see it, to spread the word about what is REAL, and what isn’t.

For now, the facts:
Common Interchangeability questions:

* 90-01 Integras (except the Type-R) and 88-00 Civics with rear disc brakes are all interchangeable onto any EK, EG, EF, DA, and DC Chassis.
* Integra rear disc spindles, compared to civic drums, are 7lbs heavier (per side of course.) Civic spindles with discs weigh less, but I don’t know how much.
* EK9 and DC2 take the same front and rear brake pads and rotors, so if you spent a ****-load of cash on a CTR 5-lug suspension/brake swap, there’s your replacement parts.
* Legend/Vigor caliper ARE similar to the Prelude/Integra-R/Civic-R calipers, though since the Legend/Vigor had the caliper on the back, swap them left to right to keep the bleeder pointing up during bleeding. Not all castings have the same numbers but the dimensions are equivelent
* The Civic 88-00 EX rotor is the 10.3" rotor on all EX model Civics from 88-00 and the same rotor found on Integras 90-01 (exc. Type-R).
* DA and DC calipers are NOT the same.
* 94-96 Integras ALL take the SAME front and rear caliper, rotor, pads. WHY people think the GSR has better brakes I don’t know.
* 94-01 Integras and 97-01 ITRs use the same knuckle, and same wheel bearing.
* 98-01 Integra GSR and ITR models use a 1" Master Cylinder, the same as from a 97-01 Prelude, and will bolt onto the 96-00 Civic stock master cylinder and hardlines with no bending of brakelines, and the fluid resovoir is the same.
* 96-00 Civics, all LHD Civics, take the same brake booster. The 99 Si and 96 CX both take the same brake booster; from a RHD 96-00 Civic chassis, the brake booster still is the same cept the brake booster vacuum port is on the other side.


THE 1996-2000 Honda Civic Front Brake OEM Upgrade chart:
Weakest to strongest brake setup


These directions tell what Caliper/bracket/rotor to use that will attach to a stock 96-00 Civic DX, CX, LX. If you have an EX model, then where it says to bolt on the EX knuckle, obviously you don’t. The “>94-01 Integra” Upgrade would require you to put on DX/LX knuckles. If you have an EG, these upgrades are the same, and the EX knuckle for you EG people would mean the EX/SI knuckle from 94-95 ABS models, or whichever ones come stock with 10.3” front brakes. You can identify the front 10.3” brakes because the caliper mount has that hanger in the front. What it means, is that from stock, this tell what Caliper body, Caliper mounting bracket (what holds the caliper’s slide bolts and attaches it to the steering knuckle) and which rotors are used with the parts.

Legend:
B = The part bolts on, no modifications needed. You need only common car tools.
Pad choice is dictated by bracket, not caliper body.
Therefore, pads ALWAYS go with the CALIPER MOUNTING BRACKET.
An asterisk (*) means that there is some machine or customization.
23T = The caliper bracket mount found on the Integra Type-R, Legend 91-95 (non GS), the 96 Prelude VTEC, the Acura Vigor.


Stock 96-00 Civic DX
This is the OEM brake system. DX knuckles, DX calipers, DX rotors.

to 96-00 EX/Si
Take the complete knuckle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to 90-93 Integra
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the 17CL14VN 90-93 Integra calipers, caliper mounting brackets, rotors, and pads and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to 94-01 Integra
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the 17CL14VN 94-01 Integra calipers, caliper mounting brackets, rotors, and pads and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to >94-01 Integra
Use your stock knuckle (with bearing and hub). Get the caliper mounting bracket, 23T, grinded 3.2mm off of the surface where it mounts to the knuckle. Grind down 97-01 Integra Type-R pads at the middle of the backing material. Use a bench grinder to take off material off the inside of the backing plate of the two outer front brake pads. Take off enough material so that it doenst touch the rotor’s hat, about two inches width wise and take the backing material back to the pad material. Go here for details: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1484555 Take the 17CL15VN ITR calipers, 23T GRINDED caliper mounting brackets, Civic EX rotors, and GRINDED pads and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to 97-01 Integra R
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the knuckles. Get the caliper mounting bracket, 23T, grinded 3.2mm off of the surface where it mounts to the knuckle. Get 1996 Prelude VTEC rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Take the 17CL15VN ITR calipers, 23T GRINDED caliper mounting brackets, Prelude VTEC rotors, and ITR pads and swap them onto the Civic DX. You can also press the ITR hub into the civic EX bearing, and not grind the bracket, use 97-01 ITR rotors, but then you have 5-lug and will need new wheels. You may use Legend or Vigor calipers, but you should put the right caliper on the left, and vice versa, so to keep the bleeder pointed up.

to 91-96 NSX (2pot)
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the knuckles. Get the caliper mounting bracket, 23T, grinded 3.2mm off of the surface where it mounts to the knuckle. Get 1996 Prelude VTEC rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Take the 91-96 NSX caliper bodies, 23T GRINDED caliper mounting brackets, Prelude VTEC rotors, and ITR pads and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to 94-95 Legend GS (2pot)
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the knuckles. Get the caliper mounting bracket, 23T, grinded 3.2mm off of the surface where it mounts to the knuckle. Get 1996 Prelude VTEC rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Take the 94-95 Legend GS caliper bodies, 23T GRINDED caliper mounting brackets, Prelude VTEC rotors, and ITR pads and swap them onto the Civic DX. Because the Legend used calipers on the backside rather than the front, your bleeder will be pointing down, so rotate the caliper 180 degrees around the upper caliper mounting bolt, and place a block in its throat while bleeding the brakes, so that you will have no air in the brake lines.

to >11.1CL

Go here for details: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2211498 This requires a good bit of machine work. Get the caliper mounting bracket, grinded 4.7mm off of the surface where it mounts to the knuckle. Grind the middle of the edges of the throat of the caliper body about 1mm in and 40mm wide. Grind the bracket at the point where it contacts the hub area of the knuckle. Grind the hangar on the underside roughly 2mm to prevent contact with the rotor's hat. Get 1996 Prelude VTEC rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Get 1996 Prelude VTEC rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Get a plastic hammer and carefully bend the dust shield back so that the rotor's back surface does not touch. Get the caliper mounting bracket grinded 3.7 mm off of the surface where it mounts to the knuckle. Get a set of custom made hub centering rings for the rotor. Take the 99-00 RL calipers, pads, modified brackets, Prelude VTEC rotors and custom aluminum centering hub rings and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to S2000
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the knuckles. Get 2004 RSX Type-S rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Get a plastic hammer and carefully bend the dust shield back so that the rotor's back surface does not touch. Take the S2000 calipers, caliper mounting brackets, and pads, RSX Type-S redrilled rotors, and swap them onto the Civic DX.

to 99-00 RL
Take the EX/Si knuckle with bearing and press the 97-01 Integra Type-R hubs into the bearings and bolt on the knuckles. Take the 28T caliper mounting brackets and place a 1.5mm washer between the knuckle and bracket, and use the 99-00 RL caliper mounting bracket bolts, as they are longer. Take the 99-00 RL calipers, 99-00 RL rotors, and 99-00 RL pads and swap them onto the Civic DX. This does use the 5-lug ITR hub, so you will need new wheels.

to >91-96 NSX (2pot)
Take the EX/Si knuckle with bearing and press the 97-01 Integra Type-R hubs into the bearings and bolt on the knuckles. Take the 28T caliper mounting brackets and place a 1.5mm washer between the knuckle and bracket, and use the 99-00 RL caliper mounting bracket bolts, as they are longer. Take the 91-96 NSX calipers, 99-00 RL rotors, and 99-00 RL pads and swap them onto the Civic DX. This does use the 5-lug ITR hub, so you will need new wheels.

to >94-95 Legend GS (2pot)
Take the EX/Si knuckle with bearing and press the 97-01 Integra Type-R hubs into the bearings and bolt on the knuckles. Take the 28T caliper mounting brackets and place a 1.5mm washer between the knuckle and bracket, and use the 99-00 RL caliper mounting bracket bolts, as they are longer. Take the 94-95 Legend GS calipers, 99-00 RL rotors, and 99-00 RL pads and swap them onto the Civic DX. This does use the 5-lug ITR hub, so you will need new wheels.


THE BRAKE SYSTEM:

Pedal – Brake Booster – Master Cylinder – Hardlines – Prop. Valve – Hardlines – Brake Hoses – Caliper – Brake Pad – Rotor.

How to upgrade your stock system (simplest to most complex):

TIRES!!!!!!! Your car will ONLY stop as fast as your tires allow before they slip.
Spend the money on tires. ITR brakes on your ABS civic with **** tires will not stop as soon as stock brakes with great tires on your ABS civic because the ITR brakes will lock up the wheels.

First off, your stock rotors…unless you are a professional racer, worrying about CONSISTENT lap times in the wet with a full stripped racecar, you do NOT want drilled or slotted rotors. Your best rotors are blank cast iron rotors, such as OEM ones, or Brembo blanks. F1 cars do not have holes in their rotors, nor do rally cars. If you must have bling, go with slotted, but do not use drilled.

DO NOT use drilled rotors on any street Honda, this is why: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1437507

For pads, your OEM pads will work well, but ceramic pads will work better. If you have some cheap pads and drilled rotors, put back on your blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, and you’ll brake better. Some people THINK drilled and slotted rotors work better, but this can be braking feel, opposed to the actual minimum 60-0 distance the car will do with ABS. The truth is that drilled and slotted rotors decrease surface area where the pad contacts. The same pressure from the piston to the pad is applied to less area, thus increasing the pressure. This means that drilled/slotted rotors heat up quicker. Now on a road this may be beneficial if you live in a cold area, but when your braking consistently, they are going to fade sooner, and those holes don't do crap for cooling, the rotor's surface and vents are going to provide a lot more cooling surface area than a few extra holes will net you.


Master Cylinder relative to the Caliper
When you go to bigger caliper than use a larger piston, you are pushing more fluid through the brake lines. Therefore, you should want a larger master cylinder to push this more fluid.

General rule is…with your stock Civic DX, with the stock front calipers, keep your 13/16” MC. Any bigger and your pedal will be too stiff.
With EX/Si calipers, use a 7/8” MC from a 96-00 EX or 99-00 Si because of the more fluid going to a larger piston.
With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or Integra DA or DC calipers, use a 15/16” MC from a 98-01 Integra LS to accommodate for the even more fluid. Any smaller of a MC will cause the pedal swing to be too long.
With NSX or Legend GS calipers that have two pistons, or an aftermarket caliper with multiple pistons, you’ll want a 1” MC because of even more fluid required to push all the pistons. Get the 1” MC from a 98-01 Integra GSR or ITR MC as it bolts onto the EK brake booster.

When changing out a master cylinder, be sure to 'bench bleed' it first. This involves having fluid in the resovoir and pumping it unconnected to allow fluid to fill the internals. If you don't do this, you can still bleed the car, but you may be at it all day, since air pockets may stick in there. Research bench bleeding before you attempt this on your own.

A bigger caliper usually has a bigger bracket, thus holds a bigger surface area pad. This is generally better, and that’s why on a Civic, you swap on an Integra caliper, because the piston is bigger (more fluid, that doesn’t help) but the pad is bigger, and the piston disperses its energy over more area because of a larger contact surface with the shim.


Now, an ITR brake system on a Civic with crummy pads, drilled rotors, stainless lines and old, water absorbed brake fluid may stop just as well as an Integra GS brake system on a Civic with good tires, semi-ceramic pads, new fluid, and blank rotors. This page is telling how to upgrade, and yes, with the same other factors, you will have a shorter 60-0 distance and less brake fade. But there are many other factors of your brake system. If you have air bubbles in the lines, it will suck. So don’t complain if you went to an aftermarket kit, or a 5-lug full ITR suspension and don’t feel like it stops as well as your civic did bone stock. It may be worse, may be better, but I can’t tell you exactly HOW much worse or better it is without knowing everything specifically.

BRAKE SOFTLINES

Brake softlines, or brake hoses, are the rubbery hoses that can flex since the hardline is bolted to the frame and the brake moves up and down with the wheel. Honda uses rubber lines as OEM. They are very durable, and unless you take a box cutter to them directly, or are in an accident, this brake hose won't leak out the sides. They will leak if you get dirt on the contact point where the softline and hardline meet if you make a dirty mess when installing. Make sure the surfaces are clean. Now many people will attest to having a firmer brake pedal with stainless steel brake lines, and this is true. Though they flex from the hydraulic pedal same as rubber OEM hoses, they do flex less.

Stainless steel brake lines affect pedal feel, not 60-0 distances. They make the pedal a bit less soft because the stainless braided lines flex less than the OEM rubber hoses, and affect pedal modulation, but on an ABS equipped car, testing the before and after 60-0 distance will show no difference.

If you do choose to use steel braided brake hoses, be sure to get some that come with some kind of coating outside the steel mesh. Any track racer will tell you that this mesh can get dust and grit in it, and this can cause wear to the brake hose inside this steel mesh, possibly causing wear, or even a leak. When connecting a banjo bolt for any reason, be sure to always use a new crush washer. Crush washers are a one time use part. Its annoying to spend the money and change em out whenever a caliper is disconnected, but you don't want a leak. Any leak in the hydraulic brake system will squirt fluid at a high pressure, and thus less pressure is going to the actual brake to stop the car.


REAR BRAKES OF YOUR 96-00 CIVIC

All but the OEM drums are considered upgrades because…I can't find any OEM larger drums that will bolt onto a civic. Even if I did, you'd still have to unbolt the drum spindle, so it’s just as much of a pain in the ***, if not more so, because most disc swaps…people swap the whole trailing arm. You may debate whether or not drums stop better than discs, but on a Civic, yes; discs ARE better at stopping you. Drums may last longer, but were interested in smaller 60-0 distances.

Common Interchangeability questions:

*When doing a rear disc conversion on an EK, you ONLY need the spindle, NOT the whole trailing arm. The spindle is held on by four T50 torx bolts and one 24mm bolt on all EF, EG, EK, DA, and DC chassis. Yes, the Torx bolts are hard to get out, and torque hard.
*88-00 Civic and 90-01 Integra Trailing arms are all interchangeable; all but the center bushing is the same.
*On an EK, use your stock LCAs, UCAs, and compensator arms or you will affect suspension geometry.
*Not all calipers may be 100% identical, but calipers and mounting brackets are Interchangeable between calipers on the following models: 88-91 CRX Si, 90-91 Civic Sedan EX, 99-00 Si, 94-95 Si with ABS, 96-97 Civic del Sol VTEC, 90-93 Integra,94-01 Integra (all models exc. Type-R)
*Civic drum rear brakes are lighter than Integra disc brakes by 7lbs spindle verse spindle.
*Civic Rear Discs are lighter than Integra Rear Discs (as a complete spindle, the rotors are identical), I don't know by how much.
*As of now, I know of no way to swap front calipers to use on the back. The caliper mount points are much farther apart for front caliper brackets, and most Hondas take solid rear discs, which are solid opposed to ventilated rotors, and they are much thinner. Also, you would have no e-brake mechanism because front calipers don’t have integrated e-brake parts.


THE 1996-2000 Honda Civic Rear Brake OEM Upgrade chart:
Weakest to strongest brake setup



Legend:

7CLP13S = 99-00 Si Caliper/CRX Si/90-01 Integra Caliper
Not all (7CLP13S) calipers/brackets may be 100% Identical, but calipers and mounting brackets are Interchangeable between calipers on the following models:
88-91 CRX Si, 90-91 Civic Sedan EX, 99-00 Si, 94-95 Si with ABS, 96-97 Del Sol VTEC, 90-93 Integra,94-01 Integra (all models exc. Type-R)
Si = Refers to the 7CLP13S (or equivelent) caliper and relative bracket
9CLP14S = EP3 Calipers/ RSX calipers
3EP = RSX/EP3 rear caliper bracket
*To use RSX/EP3 Calipers on a Civic/Integra with civic/ Integra e-brake cables, the e-brake attachment lever will need to be switched from any 7CLP13S caliper body.
*91-95 Legend rear calipers on a Civic/Teg with the 10.4" rotors uses the lighter Legend caliper, because it’s a caliper with just a piston, so it eliminates the e-brake cable and parts (for track cars). The 91-95 Legend used a separate drum for an e-brake.
** = The NSX Calipers on a Civic/Teg is NOT an OEM bolt on, and requires a custom bracket, one is available at http://www.fastbrakes.com


Stock 96-00 Civic DX
This is the OEM brake system. DX drum spindles, DX slave cylinder, DX drums

to 88-91 CRX Si
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads) and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use the 99-00 Civic Si e-brake cables.

to 92-95 Civic Si / 96-97 Del Sol VTEC
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads) and swap them onto the Civic DX. You can use the 92-95 Civic Si or 96-97 Del Sol VTEC e-brake cables if 99-00 Si cables are not available, but they may be a bit long, so use the adjustment screw.

to 99-00 Civic Si
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads) and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use the 99-00 Civic Si e-brake cables.

to 90-01 Integra (exc. ITR)
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads) and swap them onto the Civic DX. You can use the 94-01 Integra e-brake cables if 99-00 Si cables are not available, but they will be a bit long, so use the adjustment screw.

to >90-01 Integra (exc. ITR)
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, and calipers) and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use 02-03 Civic Si (EP3) caliper bracket mounts, 90-01 Integra brake pads, and EP3 rotors. Since the EP3 uses a 4x100 10.2” rear rotor, you will use the small Integra brake pad, but with the bracket will be spaced out farther from the center. You can use the 94-01 Integra e-brake cables if 99-00 Si cables are not available, but they will be a bit long, so use the adjustment screw.

to 02-03 Civic Si
Take the rear spindle (with bearing and hub) from any 88-00 Civic with rear discs, or 94-01 Integra and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use 02-03 Civic Si (EP3) caliper bracket mounts, 02-03 Civic Si EP3 brake pads, and 02-03 Civic Si EP3 rotors. To use RSX or EP3 Calipers on a Civic/Integra with Civic/Integra e-brake cables, use the e-brake attachment lever swapped on from any 7CLP13S caliper body. Use the 99-00 Civic Si e-brake cables.

to 02-06 RSX/ 04-05 Civic Si
Take the rear spindle from any 88-00 Civic with rear discs, or 94-01 Integra and swap them onto the Civic DX. Bolt the 5x114.3 hub from a 97-01 Integra Type-R on. Use 02-03 Civic Si (EP3) caliper bracket mounts, RSX brake pads, and 97-01 Integra Type-R rotors. To use RSX or EP3 Calipers on a Civic/Integra with Civic/Integra e-brake cables, use the e-brake attachment lever swapped on from any 7CLP13S caliper body. Use the 99-00 Civic Si e-brake cables. You will need 5-lug wheels.

to 96-00 Civic Type-R
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads) from a 96-00 Civic Type-R and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use the 96-00 Civic Type-R e-brake cables. You will need 5-lug wheels.

to 97-01 Integra R
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, calipers, caliper hangars, rotors, and pads) from a 97-01 Integra Type-R and swap them onto the Civic DX. You can use the 97-01 Integra Type-R e-brake cables if 99-00 Si cables are not available, but they may be a bit long so use the adjustment screw. You will need 5-lug wheels.

to 91-95 Legend
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub, rotors, and pads) from a 97-01 Integra Type-R and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use the 91-95 Legend calipers and caliper hangars. You will no longer have an e-brake. You will need 5-lug wheels.

**to 91-96 NSX (Need picture mounted on car)
Take the rear spindle (with bearing, hub) from a 99-00 Civic Si and swap them onto the Civic DX. Use the NSX calipers, pads, caliper mounting bracket, and 10.3" front Civic EX rotors and bolt them onto the Civic DX. Use the 99-00 Civic Si e-brake cables.

Drum to Disc Conversion - Brake Fluid Line Interchangeability

When you remove rear drums and convert to discs, if you are using 99-00 Si spindles and brake lines, everything is fine. However, other brake lines may not work. You do want 99-00 Civic Si or 96-00 Civic Type-R brake lines because the drum takes a different fitting. Regardless of what caliper you use, all rear calipers (and front) take a banjo bolt for the brake fluid, so they use an O-shaped connector opposed to the female fitting that connects to the hardlines on the frame of the car. So when converting from drum to disc, or disc to drum, the brake fluid lines are not the same, and regardless of which rear caliper you use, use brake hoses intended for a 99-00 Civic Si (OEM or aftermarket.)


E-brake

The emergency brake cables meant for a drum setup has a totally different end at the caliper/drum part, so those for a drum are not the same as those for a caliper.
Ideally you want to use 99-00 Si e-brake cables, but those from a 94-01 Integra work, as I have them on my 96 Civic right now, just adjust the adjusting screw more toward the front. Also the clamp that holds both cables in place wont line up, but you can move it to where it will, though only one bolt will go into the frame, not both.

Brake Bias - Front and Rear Caliper Pairing

Generally, when you go to bigger caliper than use a larger piston, you are pushing more fluid through the brake lines. Therefore, you should want a larger master cylinder to push this more fluid.

However, since the rear brake’s drum slave cylinder, or caliper piston, take much less fluid than the front brakes. Also, since you should have more powerful front brakes on your front wheel drive, front-engined car (70% to 80% of braking on the front wheels) then it is not necessary to consider rear brakes when upgrading master cylinders. Converting from drums to the 99 Si discs, about the same fluid is used, so the stock MC will be fine. If you had the DX front brakes and put on ITR rear calipers and EP3 discs, then you may want a step for master cylinders, though I recommend against this because the rear disc will be larger than the front, and the rears will lockup well before the front, meaning your rear wheels brake traction before the front brakes can do their job effectively. This means the bigger brakes can't do their job.

General rule for brake biasing is…
-With your stock Civic DX, with the stock front calipers, keep the drums it has.
-With EX/Si front brakes, upgrade to the rear 7CLP13S caliper and 9.4” rear discs.
-With Integra DA or DC calipers, or ITR calipers over a 10.3” rotor, upgrade the rear to the 7CLP13S caliper with the EP3 mounting bracket and over EP3 rotors. This gives you 10.2” rotors, however you still use the smaller brake pad and caliper, just spacing it out further, to reduce nose dive, and give a bump in back brake power since the 57mm piston of Integra calipers is more clamping power than the 2” piston of the Civic EX calipers.
-With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or with NSX or Legend GS calipers that have two pistons, or an aftermarket caliper with multiple pistons, or any front setup using a 11.1” rotor or bigger, OR if you did the 23T over 10.3” rotor hybrid, and are using two piston calipers with them, use the 10.2” rear rotor with the 9CLP14S rear calipers. If you have a track only car, I recommend 91-95 Legend rear calipers, as they are simpler, lighter and have no e-brake mechanism to deal with.


Brake Bias - Proportioning Valve

Swapping to a 96-99 CX or 99-00 Si prop. valve when installing rear discs.

The 99-00 Civic Si comes with the same shaped proportioning valve as any 96-00 Civic, so swapping the proportioning valve is a bolt on job, which can be done with a few offset brake line wrenches. The stock drum proportioning valve, when the brake pedal is applied, sends fluid to the rear drums only. This is because the drum shoes are a few millimeters from the drum, so the fluid initially moves the pads to touch the drum, whereas with a pad and rotor, the pad is so close that it brushes along the rotor while driving. After the shoe touches the drum, the proportioning valve sends fluid to the front calipers as well, and then acts as a hub for the fluid. So a rear drum intended prop. valve in a car with four wheel discs is not the end of the world.

The 99-00 SI proportioning valve acts as a hub more of the time, since the back brakes are calipers, there is no need to send so much fluid initially to the back brakes because they are calipers, and use pads that also brush against the rotor constantly. Therefore, a rear disc intended prop. valve in a car with front discs and rear drums would be very bad.

When you swap from drum to disc rear brakes, obviously its best that you use a prop. valve that was meant for it. Though I recommend that you install the 99-00 Si prop valve on your 96-00 Civic when you put rear discs on it, because of how it works, I do not have it on my rear disc equipped 1996 Civic. I do not track race, and have good tires, and on the streets, have not locked up the rear tires before the fronts because I can brake very hard and not lockup the tires. I do not have ABS.

Drum to Disc Conversion - Side notes on the conversion

The most common upgrade people want to do to their EK is put disc brakes on the back because they stop better, and have less nose dive than drums. Now drums do last longer, but if you want better stopping, go with discs. Also, please read about brake bias before you decide if you want to put discs on with the stock 9.5" front brakes if you have bad tires. Many will attest that discs with the stock DX front brakes causes the rear brakes to lockup first. This may be true with non-performance tires and on a track, but on the street under normal braking, you will be fine.

I don't have a DIY up yet on my rear disc conversion, however there are may written with better pictures, so I will just leave a few notes.
First off, MAKE sure you bleed it untill there are NO air bubbles. Your car doesnt drive if it doesn't stop. Acquire all your tools and a torque wrench. Now a note; the e-brake cable is hard to get out of the drum assembly. You want to hit the hubber along the e-brake cable with WD-40, and inside the drum assembly, is a spring clip. Its got 6-sides. Slide a box end 13mm wrench over the end of the e-brake cable, and slide it firmly over the end of this clip, and it will compress, so you can firmly pull the cable out the other side. Another note, is that once the trailing arm is attached, undo and redo each bolt, torque properly, when the car is sitting on its own wheels, so the bushings arent overstressed all the time cause there binded more than expected (not the trailing arm's center bushing).

You do NOT need the entire trailing arm; ALL 88-00 civics and 90-01 Integras take the same shaped trailing arm. You need only the spindle, which is attached by a 24mm nut, and four T50 torx bolts. Please note that most swap the entire trailing arm because those torx bolts are in there VERY firmly. I have banged the hell out of a hammer and impact and still had them stay. I advise air tools, because even with all my weight and brute force, they may not come out. Brake lines may be stubborn if your car is older and rusty. The brake hard lines can strip easily if you do not use the proper wrench. A brake line wrench is what you need, which is a 10mm box end wrench with a slot cut out so that you can slide it over the hardline. You can use this on the bleeder screw too if you put the bleeder hose over the bleeder valve first so that brake fluid doesn't spill. On an EK chassis civic, the bleeding sequence is right rear, then left front, then left rear, then front right. Don't go in a circle, the EK chassis uses a crossed brake system, so go by this sequence to avoid any cross contamination of air into the lines, otherwise you may be bleeding all day.


REMEMBER......
Your car will only stop as fast as your tires will allow. All the braking in the world wont work if your tires are bald and on ice!!

Although I'm not actually a honda-tech sponsor, I do sell brakes. If you need brake parts for any of these upgrades, feel free to IM me.





Modified by BrakeExpert at 12:39 PM 2/22/2008

racer_X_123

WOW!!! Lots of great info, I myself have been witness to almost all these setups. This guy is a wizard when it comes to brakes on hondas... All this info is 100% true and will work every time!

.Thomas

FAQ anyone?

vietnameeh

this is good stuff, but can someone help clarify what can be done for rear brake upgrades... i guess from SKIMMING the SCCA rules theres nothing that says that you can do a drum to disc conversion... which means its not legal? (i could be wrong, cause i didnt read it very carefully)

i do see somthing in the PREPARED class rules.. maybe someone can chime in


Modified by vietnameeh at 2:09 AM 11/16/2006

DB2-R81

Some good info in there, some for the backyard mechanic, which does not belong on a racecar, and some clearly not at all accurate or true!

You wrote " The most common upgrade people want to do to their EK is put disc brakes on the back because they stop better, and have less nose dive than drums."

What do you mean by "stop better"? And what do you mean by "less nose dive"? Leave the conjecture and stories to politicians!

Now if you mentioned change over reasons such as maintenance schedual or appearance I would be more likely to say you were on the right track.



Modified by DB2-R81 at 1:36 AM 11/16/2006

vtecbob99

Great info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can someone give me more info on EFs or point me in the right direction?
All I know of is the DA brakes.

BrakeExpert

I am not giving conjecture. Discs DO stop better than drums. We can debate all day about fade, maintainence, thermodynamics, etc. But the bottom line is...if you were to put say ITR front brakes on a civic with rear drums, you would stop well. If you then put discs on the back insted, your 60-0 time will go down.

Nose dive, in a car, is the "lunging" felt as you hit the brake. The car tilts forward. It has to do with the weight of the car, and the engine's non-solid motor mounts and other factors. But drive a civic. Then drive one with discs in the back. Tell me how it feels. You should notice the rear disc civic doesn't "dip" so agressively, it feels different. I'm not going to say HOW MUCH less nose dive you may notice, but it is less. Calipers and Drums are just different, one clamping a rotor, and one pushing on a cylinder.

REGARDING EFs:

The EF cars that come with 10.3" front brakes (like the CRX Si) can be treated as 96-00 EX civics, brake wise. The DX EF models have the knuckle of the Civic 9.5" front brakes, but the hub and axle center may or may not be the same, therefore I can't say anything 100%. HF models have slightly smaller than the typical 9.5" brakes, and I can't verifying anything on their knuckles.

essex

No crx's came with 10.3...all the ef std,cx,dx,siknuckles are pretty much the same except for the 4spd std civ hatch model which has a diff splined hub.

BrakeExpert

Really? I thought for sure there was a CRX that came with 10.3" front brakes and rear discs.

Well, I am an expert on the EK and not the EF. I can't give proof of CRX setups right now, I don't want to list false information. That chart is accurate to EG/EK/DA/DC chassis, and any cross referenceing of parts to EF parts I would gladly appreciate.

dr_latino999

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Really? I thought for sure there was a CRX that came with 10.3" front brakes and rear discs. </TD></TR></TABLE> The 90-91 Civic EX Sedan had 10.3" front discs, but drums in the back.

FOR OUTSTANDING information, is there a place we can nominate him for must informative post of the year?

*Boostwerks*

Holy **** this is amazing! Thanks for putting this together!

Question though...Whatdoes the EP3 bracket look like? From the pics I've found online, i can't figure out how it would bolt onto my rear EF drum trailing arm.

BrakeExpert

A caliper bracket is where the slide bolts go into, and it bolts to the knuckle/spindle. It also lines up the pads. In that picture, look at 37, that bolt goes into two holes. That funny shaped "C" that those bolts go into, thats the bracket.

You can't just put discs on a drum trailing arm. There is no 'drum trailing arm', trailing arms are the suspension piece where the wheels pivot about. The drum parts are bolted to the trailing arm by a "spindle." You will need a spindle designed for discs, it has two holes for where a caliper attaches, and it also has no slave drum cylinder.

I'll try and be more clear about this stuff.

*Boostwerks*

Ahh IC. so I would need like 99 SI spindles as well?

BrakeExpert

I believe I mentioned that ANY 88-00 Civic/90-01 Integra spindle in the back meant for discs will bolt on and work.

Maybe some people don't know what a "spindle" on the back is. First off, there is no "drum trailing arm". The trailing arm on ALL 88-00 Civics is exactly the same. The spindle, which holds the brakes, actually can detach from the trailing arm.



This is the bare drum spindle. Just the hub on it, and slave cylinder. The drum shoes and springs have been disassembled so you can see.


This is the actual spindle, showing how it attaches. Imagine the trailing arm pointing right towards you, as in the tire goes straight up and down in this picture. From the front of the car, this is how it would look. That "spike" goes into the trailing arm via its 24mm big *** nut. and those two screws you see, though there are four.



This is how you detach the spindle from the trailing arm to change from drum to disc. The 24mm axle nut needs some brute force, or a big socket wrench and hammer. The T50 todx bolts are just a bitch and a half. These 4 bolts and nut hold your brakes and wheel onto the car, so no wonder there tightened so much, you dont ever want them coming loose unexpectedly, however they usually dont want to come loose ever, hehe. The rusty area is where it touches the traling arm, don't know why Honda chose that shape. The black circle is what the drum stuff mounts to, the circle is for where the e-brake comes in, and that hardline goes to the slave cylinder.


This drum spindle may bolt to ANY 88-00 civic or 90-01 Integra trailing arm (Integras had drums in Japan on the lower models, for reference.)


Modified by Redline57 at 12:08 PM 2/7/2007

BrakeExpert

I would like to add that I believe a company, I wanna say fastbrakes.com, makes an adapter. I saw in an issue of either Honda-tuning or ImportTuner where they took a stock drum trailing arm, left the spindle and arm on, and took off the drum **** (the plate that holds it), and bolted an adapter bracket to it. It used the 4 bolts on the outer side of the spindle, so that it didn't have to be detached. This was a good way to do it, as that axle nut for the hub is still probably easier than it can be to get the torx bolts off. I have had a BITCH of a time getting the T50 torx bolt out before.

XkjeldorX

BUMP! cause 40 mins after searching i found this
I do have some questions that i would liked answered pls so i dont have to make another "brake thread".
I know this thread is for 96-00 but i need help on my 95 hatch.
I have a 95 cx hatch w/rear disks already and want to upgrade the fronts now.
Will a 96-00 civic EX knuckle bolt right up? (I can get the fronts real cheap).
Will a MC from a ABS eg be Plug and play into my 95 cx or do i HAVE to get a non abs MC?
BUMP again!

BrakeExpert

If you want to upgrade the front, you have two options. One is to stick with the stock knuckles and use the ITR calipers with machined brackets. This is what I am using. The other option requires different steering knuckles. Are you lowered? If not, i'd advice against EK steering knuckles as they are about 1.25cm shorter. This means your camber, if the car is at stock height, will be positive, being a bad thing. You'd need a camber kit. I reccomend any 94-01 Integra steering knuckle as its the same as yours in height and all other necessary dimensions (cept the tabs are out farther for the calipers, being what you want.) These or from a 92-95 civic that came with stock 10.3" brakes. I don't see how ABS affects master cylinder. If you go to an Integra caliper, you'd want a 15/16" master cylinder which you can pluck from a 94-97 Integra (any model except GSR). Any 92-95 Civic or 94-97 Integra MC will physically bolt on your car with no modification. PM me if I've confused you.

pos_cd5

i say make this a sticky

XkjeldorX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to upgrade the front, you have two options. One is to stick with the stock knuckles and use the ITR calipers with machined brackets. This is what I am using. The other option requires different steering knuckles. Are you lowered? If not, i'd advice against EK steering knuckles as they are about 1.25cm shorter. This means your camber, if the car is at stock height, will be positive, being a bad thing. You'd need a camber kit. I reccomend any 94-01 Integra steering knuckle as its the same as yours in height and all other necessary dimensions (cept the tabs are out farther for the calipers, being what you want.) These or from a 92-95 civic that came with stock 10.3" brakes. I don't see how ABS affects master cylinder. If you go to an Integra caliper, you'd want a 15/16" master cylinder which you can pluck from a 94-97 Integra (any model except GSR). Any 92-95 Civic or 94-97 Integra MC will physically bolt on your car with no modification. PM me if I've confused you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanx for taking the time to answer my questions.
A couple things, I would much rather swap knuckles than get brackets machined, Its much easier for me. I'm lowered about 2 inches and i do have a camber kit in the front, so using EK knuckles should be no problem right? I went to a couple junkyards but i was unable to find any 94-01 integras or any 92-95 civics with the 10.3" brackes.
And like you said, the EG ABS 15/16th MC will bolt right up to my booster, But will the lines bolt right up too? I can get that MC for 35 bucks so i think its a good deal, and if everything bolts right up including the lines, than ill def. go and get it.

Edit: One more thing, You said i could also use any 94-97 integra MC except gsr, and that everything will bolt up to my car, but i thought you needed an integra brake booster in order to run an integra MC, is there any truth to that?
Thanx again and i vote Sticky too!


Modified by XkjeldorX at 7:10 PM 1/18/2007

Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am not giving conjecture. Discs DO stop better than drums. We can debate all day about fade, maintainence, thermodynamics, etc. But the bottom line is...if you were to put say ITR front brakes on a civic with rear drums, you would stop well. If you then put discs on the back insted, your 60-0 time will go down.

Nose dive, in a car, is the "lunging" felt as you hit the brake. The car tilts forward. It </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not to be pissy, but with you sort of "declaring" all this information, have you tested these comparisons? Then if you have, has it involved more than driving one car with discs, then another with drums? If you want to make such bold claims, we RR/Autox guys want to see hard numbers. I actually don't think your 60-0 would decrease, assuming the same compound brake material in the rear and same tires. The tires are, after all, what really matters for stopping.

Something else you're going to want to consider, ESPECIALLY for autoxers (this does not necessarily apply to track people) is that the bigger brakes weigh a darn good amount more than the smaller, stock versions. For a short course, assuming you have a decent pad, I can't imagine fade is that big of an issue on a stock system of any kind, which is where the real benefit of bigger rotors comes in to play.

BrakeExpert

You don't need an integra booster, just the MC. The booster from a Integra is thicker, but the bolt pattern is similar. Thats why that one will bolt on.

stinky, I didn't think I had to give reasons why discs are better than drums, they are. Notice there are 0 cars made currently with front drums? I'd go check some research on the internet for yourself should you not believe me. This isn't something I drummed up, this is knowledge thats been around for years.

Now regarding the weight factor. Depending on the track your doing I guess (I am not a professional track racer like some of you) It might be beneficial on some courses to use drums. I've seen some CRXs with ITR front brakes and a 11.1" rotor, but stock rear drums. It might not be the most comfortable thing on the roads, but on a track, the rear drums are about 7-9lbs lighter for the back. If your car is all lightened and your concerned about unsprung weight, and your tires are limiting you, then your rear drums may be alright for your application. Depending on how much fade you might get, I guess you'd have to check every application to see if your ET round a track is better or worse with discs in the back, depending on whats limiting your car (tires, suspension, etc.) You guys all know that there are MANY variables in a car. I was stating that on the whole, discs are better for many reasons. Like if you had really really bad tires, with ABS, on some cars, maybe all wheel drums may net a shorter 60-0 distance due to less rotational mass, I dunno.

Stinkycheezmonky

I'm not saying drums are better, just that discs maybe aren't all they're hyped up to be all the time. For one, I'm talking only about rear applications. I won't make any argument about them in the front. For rear brakes though, especially in a Honda that really doesn't require much brake at all in the rear, drums are definitely adequate for even hard track use. Plenty of racers run them with very fast lap times, so they can't be hindering too much.

Now, ease of maintenance is an entirely different animal. Despite what I just said, I am running rear discs on my car, and it's completely about not wanting to expletive around with drums.

BrakeExpert

I understand on the maintainence parts. I mean drums aren't hard to expletive with on a Honda its just that....well changing pads on calipers is so damn easy. Changing brake shoes can take a bit, whereas you can change pads in a few minutes a wheel, even with taking the old pad and twisting the piston.

kb58

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Master Cylinder relative to the Caliper
When you go to bigger caliper than use a larger piston, you are pushing more fluid through the brake lines. Therefore, you should want a larger master cylinder to push this more fluid.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, and no; this is a common misperception. If you really are pushing more fluid through the lines, it means the brake calipers are flexing. What's really going on is the need to adjust the pounds/area force on the pistons. It has nothing to do with moving fluid. If it does, it means the calipers are flexing and need replacement. It's all about transmitting a force, not fluid displacement. Yes, the master cylinder size must be changed, but not for the reason stated.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Nose dive, in a car, is the "lunging" felt as you hit the brake. The car tilts forward. It has to do with the weight of the car, and the engine's non-solid motor mounts and other factors. But drive a civic. Then drive one with discs in the back. Tell me how it feels. You should notice the rear disc civic doesn't "dip" so agressively, it feels different. I'm not going to say HOW MUCH less nose dive you may notice, but it is less. Calipers and Drums are just different, one clamping a rotor, and one pushing on a cylinder.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is mixing different systems in the car. If changing the brakes makes the nose dip less, it's because it's decelerating less. In other words, the brakes are not slowing the car down as quickly. This is likely due to the slave cylinder being smaller, or, more likely, because the Cf of the pad/shoe material against the disk/drum has changed. Changing brake pad material can make the brakes totally different.

Nose dive is determined by the physical layout of the car, and the deceleration force, but has no direct link to the braking technique. It's just a force.

Stinkycheezmonky

Thanks for explaining that about the nosedive, that was another thing I wanted to address but couldn't explain clearly. It's not like better rear brakes would keep the rear suspension from unloading more or something, or would keep weight transfer off the front somehow.