TORQUE MONSTER

I'm planning to run my EG CX in SM next year. I building a sohc z6 Jackson racing s/c. Any opinions on this dedicated soloII car? What kind of power output and will it be competitive?

thanks
oe

funz0rzies

Any other modifications? Suspension/wheels/tires?

TORQUE MONSTER

sorry yes of course.
15x8s, 23 offset, v710s 225s, konis, ibach c/o, lsd etc. the works.

DA9 Integra

you're gonna need more than over-the-shelf konis in SM.

JOEY F.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DA9 Integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you're gonna need more than over-the-shelf konis in SM.</TD></TR></TABLE>

At nationals, yes, OTS konis would be very conservative..But to say OTS konis won't be good would really depend on the level of competition he is up against in his region. I've seen EG hatches do great with OTS koni's in my region.

honda93

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TORQUE MONSTER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm planning to run my EG CX in SM next year. I building a sohc z6 Jackson racing s/c. Any opinions on this dedicated soloII car? What kind of power output and will it be competitive?

thanks
oe
</TD></TR></TABLE>

In one respect, if you are doing this for local fun, then yes, you have a great little package in the works. However, if you step up the game in the future and begin attending Natonal events (and every good autocrosser eventually does), you're going to find that you won't have enough HP, torque, gearing, tire, shock, spring, and MONEY to even begin to compete with the class leading BMW's and EVO's.

When he gets back from Kansas, I am sure Chris Travis will chime in. Here's his website for his SM Civic, generally regarded as the fastest FWD SM Civic in the country... It's also over $30,000 into the game by now. http://www.b18c5.com/

Here's what he's up against... Vic Sias owns his own shop, so that must help with the bills and such (mild sarcasm) http://www.siastuning.com/yellodetailsMAIN.htm

See my point?

I had run my 93 Civic DX Coupe in $treet Mod the last two years I had owned it... But eventually sold it because I'd NEVER be able to spend enough money to become a trophy winner nationally.

I now run a 2006 Civic LX Coupe in H Stock. Now that this season is winding down, I can honestly say that after autocrossing for 12+ seasons, I personally feel that Stock classes are the best with respect to showcasing driving talent and as a result, I'll never mod a car enough to get bumped out of Stock again. In the two national events I contested the new Civic with, I had a second and a third, in its first season!

TORQUE MONSTER

I know Chris (Rodney) personally. We plan to do a little battling next season. Trust me I know about "$M"... However I’m playing on the weight; M3s, Evos, and such have a huge disadvantage… and that's weight. That is why Rodney is switching up; not sure if he unveiled his plans... so I'll keep quite about that.

My reason with going CX EG is that I can get right at the weight minimum for F/I. An EF would be ideal if I was NA, but I don’t want to shell out the money for a competitive NA motor. Redshift did, and they consistently beat out most SM competitors; M3s, Evos included. Unfortunately I don’t think Shienafield ever drove their SM car at Nationals. If he had driven it this year, a different result might come about.

Back to the topic. Getting more power out of the 16 shouldn’t be a problem; its traction that worries me. I was asking because I don’t see this setup much. Makes me wounded why not.

Jaker

You are going in the right direction with your build. If that new weight proposal goes through your car will need to weigh 1,924-1,925 lbs. Right now it's 1,900. That shouldn't be that hard for a D16 powered CX EG. I think the problem will be fitting big enough rubber. Here's how to get traction out of a D16 supercharged Civic:

TORQUE MONSTER

Ahh yes, I've seen that car around. What size wheels/tires?

honda93

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TORQUE MONSTER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know Chris (Rodney) personally. We plan to do a little battling next season. Trust me I know about "$M"... However I’m playing on the weight; M3s, Evos, and such have a huge disadvantage… and that's weight. That is why Rodney is switching up; not sure if he unveiled his plans... so I'll keep quite about that.

My reason with going CX EG is that I can get right at the weight minimum for F/I. An EF would be ideal if I was NA, but I don’t want to shell out the money for a competitive NA motor. Redshift did, and they consistently beat out most SM competitors; M3s, Evos included. Unfortunately I don’t think Shienafield ever drove their SM car at Nationals. If he had driven it this year, a different result might come about.

Back to the topic. Getting more power out of the 16 shouldn’t be a problem; its traction that worries me. I was asking because I don’t see this setup much. Makes me wounded why not.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I know Chris as well. He's stepping back a generation on chassis. He told me at Honda Day this summer. Well, since you're obviously not a rookie/newb, I must say... Good Luck!

$M truly is a fun diverse class, but I simply couldn't afford to go faster (in retrospect: nor did I really have a desire to infuse that much coin into a class that I personally felt would never be won by a FWD car).

TORQUE MONSTER

thanks, I just wanted to get some opions on it. I CAN build a M3 too, but thats later down the line I guess. I'm on the same wave length as Rodney, proving to the world FF can do it.

I honestly feel with a talented driver, and a good build.. (285/18s?) hehhehe why not?

honda93

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TORQUE MONSTER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks, I just wanted to get some opions on it. I CAN build a M3 too, but thats later down the line I guess. I'm on the same wave length as Rodney, proving to the world FF can do it.

I honestly feel with a talented driver, and a good build.. (285/18s?) hehhehe why not? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Have you seen Chris Janusz's $M Civic in person? He and Shenefield did a nice job on it, but they were sidelined with some issues last season. The car seems fine this year.

TORQUE MONSTER

Not rescently. I saw it when Shainafield was driving it. It was fast then, I'm sure it's way faster now.

Jaker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TORQUE MONSTER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What size wheels/tires? </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TORQUE MONSTER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(285/18s?) hehhehe why not? </TD></TR></TABLE>

KekeK_5G

I've had almost the same setup (DX EG HB w/SC'd Z6) you are describing and on several occasions it was faster than Chris's car. But my opinions lie with Tony on this one, the dynamics are just not in favor of the FF. The lower weight and extra torque are gonna help, but are the SM evo's built to the hilt as light as possible? I don't really think so, I know Daddio's wasn't.

As a data point I've got a well prepped BSP 2003 evo8 right now that has beaten Chris's EG at every dry event we were both at this year (he killed me in the rain at Devens, Kumho 712's vs Hoosier wets). Not a huge difference between SP and SM, but you can see the car isn't keeping pace now with an SP car, nevermind SM. I am assuming here that driving ability between Chris and myself is about equal. Tony can attest.

John

Edit: If you are still gonna build it I have some Skunk2 adjustable (camber) upper control arms and some 320cc injectors. I'll sell them very cheap since they have been sitting for quite awhile. May have a couple other things too.

honda93

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KekeK_5G &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've had almost the same setup (DX EG HB w/SC'd Z6) you are describing and on several occasions it was faster than Chris's car. But my opinions lie with Tony on this one, the dynamics are just not in favor of the FF. The lower weight and extra torque are gonna help, but are the SM evo's built to the hilt as light as possible? I don't really think so, I know Daddio's wasn't.

As a data point I've got a well prepped BSP 2003 evo8 right now that has beaten Chris's EG at every dry event we were both at this year (he killed me in the rain at Devens, Kumho 712's vs Hoosier wets). Not a huge difference between SP and SM, but you can see the car isn't keeping pace now with an SP car, nevermind SM. I am assuming here that driving ability between Chris and myself is about equal. Tony can attest.

John</TD></TR></TABLE>


I can absolutely, 100% vouch for John regarding his post. Everything he is saying is true as we've driven the same cars and run against the same people over the years. Chris Travis and Mark Daddio are "local" enough that we see them and know them instead of just chatting online or seeing pictures of them in magazines.

That being said, here's another example to add to John's... I beat Travis and Nelson on Sunday (he still got me overall) at the Toledo National Tour with my 93 Civic DX Coupe $M car back in 2005 (basically an H Stock legal B16A2 with an ITR trans and all the suspension goodies one would expect to find). Point is, given the level of prep and the quality of compnents Chris has in that thing, they should never have lost to me that day.

So, for you to attempt to take on the EVO's and M3's with a FWD, force induced Civic is going to be more of an excercise in creative engineering, cash infusions, and patience.

Frankly, my belief regarding that general FWD FI setup is as follows... More time working and developing the car, less time in the seat enjoying the car itself or the 5 minutes of seat time given at autocrosses.

Sorry, I just think logically on matters such as this because my time and money are both precious commodities in my life (wife & kid, house, grad school, 2 car payments). But again, this applies only if you are planning on doing this Nationally. If you stay local forever, then go ahead and have fun because when the car is dialed in and all the stars are aligned, the car will be a monster and who cares if it isn't Nationally competitive at that point?

fsp31

I've been thinking about the way we develop our SM cars and how they all follow an evolution that seems so thoroughly ingrained in autox culture that to even suggest such a thing is to be flamed mercilessly. But oh well...

Rather than building a FWD to maximize handling, build it for maximum acceleration (a drag car), then figure out how to make it handle while keeping a close eye on the G-meter. We have to get into the 1G acceleration range to be competitive. Period. I dunno if it's impossible, but right now it seems sort of improbable. From data I've seen, FWD autox cars seem not to be able to get past about .6 G's. However, the drag guys are posting some amazing 60 ft times, and it can't be just the gumballs (although they help a whole whole lot!). I don't know if there's anything to uncover there, but it's something to think about.

Jaker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rather than building a FWD to maximize handling, build it for maximum acceleration (a drag car) </TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you feel that there is enough areas in an autocross course where you need "MAXIMUM" longitudinal acceleration so as to give up some lateral acceleration in exchange? I don't.

Todd00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do you feel that there is enough areas in an autocross course where you need "MAXIMUM" longitudinal acceleration so as to give up some lateral acceleration in exchange? I don't. </TD></TR></TABLE>

And neither does anyone else in a FWD, which is why we run decent amounts of toe-out and camber...both of which make straight-line more difficult.

At a pro-solo maybe...but you're not going to outlaunch an AWD car no matter what you do.

KekeK_5G

kinda funny, while we discuss this Day one SM results have Nelson in 3rd and Chris 4th in the FWD Civic, those boys must be happy since Nelson is only 0.1 sec off the leader and Chris is 0.2 sec behind Nelson.

Don't know if there are any stories there...

honda93

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KekeK_5G &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">kinda funny, while we discuss this Day one SM results have Nelson in 3rd and Chris 4th in the FWD Civic, those boys must be happy since Nelson is only 0.1 sec off the leader and Chris is 0.2 sec behind Nelson.

Don't know if there are any stories there...</TD></TR></TABLE>

You read my mind John! I think the courses are smaller and the asphalt isn't as grippy... Thus, I don't believe the M3's are being exploited to thier maximum due to those factors.

fsp31

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And neither does anyone else in a FWD, which is why we run decent amounts of toe-out and camber...both of which make straight-line more difficult.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sheesh people. At least peek over the top of the box. Mark Daddio feels that the area of greatest weakness for a FWD is in acceleration. Seems like everyone with hard data to back up their "complaints" against FWD's in Street Mod end up on the acceleration issue. Obviously, we're talking about autox here and we spend a relatively small amount of time at WOT (i've done a "few" events myself...), but there must be something important in there or people in the know wouldn't refer to it so much.

To me it looks like there are 4 possibilities regarding FWD's in Street Mod:

1) Keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results (SP car with bigger power, bigger wheels, bigger tires, blah blah).

2) Try something new and "controversial".

3) Jump on the "FWD's won't ever be competitive in Street Mod" bandwagon.

4) Asphalt to the rescue!

I like the second one. And I guess the 4th one ain't bad.

Todd00

Yes, but--BSP is off of the top SM time by 0.0xx so far.

BSP EVO + a few SM mods...

A FWD car is crippled by standing acceleration, yes. But there is no way to change that without seriously compromising other aspects of the car IMO. And considering this is SM, you're dealing with RWD and AWD cars that are already way ahead of you in terms of layout.

My guess is that Rodney et. al do not have tirespin issues when already moving. My STX ITR would roast from a standstill, but when rolling it would just flat hook-up, even on skinny street rubber. And that car is making 185hp @ the wheels. Traction out of a corner is another story altogether...

TORQUE MONSTER

I actually spoke to Chris last night.. He feels confident that they'll bring it home. Then again he's always confident.

Jaker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TORQUE MONSTER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I actually spoke to Chris last night.. He feels confident that they'll bring it home. Then again he's always confident.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Unfortunately, Chris and Nelson got passed by a few RWD cars, and ended up in 8th and 5th respectively. Even Sias got beat by Tunnell and his co-driver James Leithauser as well as Scott Fraser in another M3. Congrats also to Neal Tovsen for putting the old school Scirocco in 6th. Other than Tunnell running away (1.1 seconds ahead of 2nd), 2nd thru 8th was relatively close.

http://www.scca.com/Event/Result.asp?Ref2=339