DavidR

Ok, so here are my experiences with Poly bushings in the front end of my Honda. Your mileage may vary.

All in all, don't use Polyurethane bushings in the front of a Honda, and probably not in any car. As seen by the pictures below, you can probably see why. My theory behind all of this is that the poly, while strong, doesn't maintain its shape when deformed, rather, keeps the deformed shape. Secondly, plastic wears out, and that is all that poly is, a softer plastic.

Lets start in the front. On the front LCA, there are 3 bushings, shock mount, chassis mount, and compliance bushing. The chassis mount is in the inward most bushing. The motion of the LCA at this point is strictly up and down, or at least, can be limited to strictly up and down. Over time, the metal sleeve insert in the poly bushing wears the poly out, even when properly lubricated, and you and up with gaps around the sleeve which allows for movement.

Here is a short video shoing the wear:
Worn Bushing Movie
I opted to replace these with Orijin Motorsports bearings:


Next, lets move to the shock mount. This attaches the shock fork to the LCA, and transfers load upwards to the shock, as the wheel moves up and down. This bushing is under constant load. I found that poly bushings here crack under the load, espically around the sleeve, where the shock fork rides. I don't have any pictures of this, but this is what happens. I first replaced this bushing with a new poly bushing, but soon after decided to put a Mugen bushing in. Luckily, I didn't have to remove the LCA to install it, I used a ball joint press:




Next, lets move to the compliance bushing. While I'm no engineer, I think the purpose of this bushing is to mimic the old radius rod setup from elder civics, which was keep the LCA perpendicular to the chassis (since we don't have an V design). I replaced this bushing with poly at the same time I did all the bushings, and over time, it deforms quite a bit.



So, I decided to replace this bushing with its Mugen counterpart, too.



Now, lets move to the upper control arm in the front. I replaced the bushings here with poly ones, and over time, as with the inner LCA bushing, they wore and induced slop. I replaced these with the Orijin motorsports hard bushings, we'll see how long these last.


So far, after all the changes, I can feel a difference in the ride, at least in the front. The bumps/holes in the road isn't nearly as harsh as they were with the poly, which is understandable. It is left to be seen how well these perform over the old deformed poly bushings.

To add to this, the rear trailing arm bushing shouldn't be swapped for a poly bushings either, keep it a rubber bushing, or opt for a very expensive spherical unit (which might not last that long in street trim). I have personal experience with this, and you can find backing of this on Honda-Tech in the road race forum. I swapped back to a Mugen rear trailing arm bushing. As for rear LCA poly bushings, I am currently watching how well the poly bushings perform in my Function7 LCAs, and will provide feedback to them if I find issues/concerns...but I suspect no issues with them, at all.



Modified by DavidR at 2:29 PM 6/1/2006

Vitt1

Good information. Isn't the Origin sold as a set for the front LCA?
Also, you found the ride not as harsh, even though you have spherical bearings, at least on the chassis mount point?

DavidR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vitt1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good information. Isn't the Origin sold as a set for the front LCA?
Also, you found the ride not as harsh, even though you have spherical bearings, at least on the chassis mount point? </TD></TR></TABLE>

The orijin kit can be purchsed seperately, or together as a kit. When I first put the car together, I put the orijin kit in, with the old poly bushings, then more recently, swapped the shock mount and compensator bushing out. I think most of the ride quality is lost in the shock mount, as that is what the spring/shock is pushing/pulling against, which gives you the harshness in the ride.

RagingAngel

Awesome post....

the poly bushings you originally put in to replace the OEM stuff, what brand were they?

DavidR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RagingAngel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Awesome post....

the poly bushings you originally put in to replace the OEM stuff, what brand were they?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Energy Suspension.

Safir

the million dollar question, in my mind, is how long were they in? I think the lenght of time these bushings were in use is important to include when stating that they should not be used because they wear out prematurely.

DavidR

They were installed some time go in my other car, in 1999. I would guess they saw 50k miles, at most. They were then moved over to my other car late last year. A ton of auto-xes and 3-4 DEs. I don't think the time should discount the fact they wore though, as they tout "Greater Durability", which signals to me they'd last longer than a stock bushing. They also tout "impregnated selected black polyurethane components with graphite–to add a lubrication property", which should mean less wear. Perhaps the less wear part is true, as I did not test the "red" bushings.

roppetty

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They were installed some time go in my other car, in 1999. I would guess they saw 50k miles, at most. They were then moved over to my other car late last year. A ton of auto-xes and 3-4 DEs. I don't think the time should discount the fact they wore though, as they tout "Greater Durability", which signals to me they'd last longer than a stock bushing. They also tout "impregnated selected black polyurethane components with graphite–to add a lubrication property", which should mean less wear. Perhaps the less wear part is true, as I did not test the "red" bushings. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i could be wrong, but i thought i read that part of the reason the stock bushings arnt hard is that they are designed to last forever. along with not having to lubricate or provide any maintenance to them and a softer ride, but i can see why something hard would wear more as it wouldnt have any give when it's stressed. stock bushigns have plenty of give, which means they wouldnt have as much stress put on them to crack

LBHgti

The OEM rubber bushings have no pieces moving against each other and rely on flex to get the job done. With poly bushings, the inner sleeve rotates inside the poly bushing, offering more positive location of the pivot point, as well as less friction. Poly bushings need to be disassembled, cleaned, and lubed quite often in order to last for a while, becuase if there is no lube, they tend to tear and deform. 50K is a lot of miles for poly, but they had been serviced from time to time, I'm willing to bet they would be in much better shape.

Chillinit

So what would be the best bushings(brand) to go with that provide better performance then stock and longetivity?

DavidR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LBHgti &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The OEM rubber bushings have no pieces moving against each other and rely on flex to get the job done. With poly bushings, the inner sleeve rotates inside the poly bushing, offering more positive location of the pivot point, as well as less friction. Poly bushings need to be disassembled, cleaned, and lubed quite often in order to last for a while, becuase if there is no lube, they tend to tear and deform. 50K is a lot of miles for poly, but they had been serviced from time to time, I'm willing to bet they would be in much better shape. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you look at the complaince bushing, it has lots of lube on it still, and it deformed a ton, so I don't think lube was a problem on that particualr case. As for the inner LCA bushing, you might be right, but why would Energy advertise they put "graphite" in them for lubrication. The pre-lube they send with the kit is there for assembly, I don't think it is a maintaince lube. I know for a fact I lubed the inner LCA bushing at least 3 times during its use, but, over 50k, that isn't very much service. Being a daily driver for a while, I just didn't have the downtime to mess with that.

For my Orijin kit, I plan on taking it down after every few events to check it, as I am leary of its durability, but it does offer the optimim "location" of the pivot point.

As for better than stock, with lower/no maintence, I would say the Mugen bushings. The complaince bushing was quite a bit stiffer than the factory parts, as were the shock mounts, though, they are still rubber.

Erik95LS

Awesome info. I've been very interested in the Orijin bushings. Please keep us up to date on how they wear.

Andrie Hartanto

I had the same problem and I used prothane.
Mine lasted 2 race weekend, and another 2 race weekend after replacing them with new ones.

dvp

Prothane bushings suck ***....and I'm being totally serious. I drove to Buttonwillow and when I get there my front LCA was smacking back and forth because the bushing had been crushed and there was play between the bushing and the sleeve.
I replaced them with ES bushings. Drove to Thunderhill tracked and drove home, no problems.
I can't however agree with this thread. Bushings no matter what you use are a wear item and if your doing that many HPDEs and autocrosses, it's just plain common sense to change them out once or twice a year.

After 10+ years with ANY bushing, your going to see problems.

vtecjj

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie Hartanto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had the same problem and I used prothane.
Mine lasted 2 race weekend, and another 2 race weekend after replacing them with new ones.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

What?! I just got a sponsorship from them

Which bushings/part of the control arms became deformed?

Which color did you have, black or red (although I don't think there's a difference in hardness).

What did you eventually replace them with?

now, I'll be keeping an eye on mine-
jonathan

Andrie Hartanto

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecjj &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What?! I just got a sponsorship from them

Which bushings/part of the control arms became deformed?

Which color did you have, black or red (although I don't think there's a difference in hardness).

What did you eventually replace them with?

now, I'll be keeping an eye on mine-
jonathan

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry to say, but that is a sponsorship you do not want.

I used both colors.

All of them, front and rear deformed, with the exception of the front compliance bushing (the big bushing)

I replaced the rear with all monoball in the rear. Still using rubber in the front but in process of changing them to monoball.

Andrie Hartanto

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dvp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Prothane bushings suck ***....and I'm being totally serious. I drove to Buttonwillow and when I get there my front LCA was smacking back and forth because the bushing had been crushed and there was play between the bushing and the sleeve.
I replaced them with ES bushings. Drove to Thunderhill tracked and drove home, no problems.
I can't however agree with this thread. Bushings no matter what you use are a wear item and if your doing that many HPDEs and autocrosses, it's just plain common sense to change them out once or twice a year.

After 10+ years with ANY bushing, your going to see problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Obviously each people results might be different. That being said, it doesn't mean it won't happen.

You said it is common sense to change them out once or twice a year? Who's common sense? Yours? Their marketing is that the bushing should last a lifetime.

Heck my monoball suspension last much longer than POS urethane. The trailing arm is almost 2 yrs old and going strong. The rest is about half a season and going strong.

ekim952522000

It appears that mugen is the way to go if your on a budget

Tyson

how about posting this in suspension forum as well. im sure a lot of ppl there would find this informative as well.

DavidR

I thought about it, but some people tend to be very picky about double posting things. You can start a topic over there and refer them to this one though, I'm sure that won't be looked down upon.

JamesS

I've had similar results with Poly and have since gone back to stock for several reasons.

I agree bushings are a wear item. But I also think the choice of bushings (material) should be considered in light of the "total package" - springs, shock settings, sway bars, tires, and most importantly driver preference and driving style. Stock bushings seem the better choice for me at this time, but if I decide to change any components in the car or my driving ability/style changes, then I will for sure consider Poly for certain bushings.

MattP

Two questions:

Has anyone here experienced similar failures with delrin bushings?

What car is this in the pictures? I'm unfamiliar with those suspension pieces.

DavidR

My sway bar has delrin busings on it, its a GC rear sway. But, that is the only experience I have with the stuff.

Really, looks that odd? The car is a 92 Civic Hatch.

dvp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie Hartanto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Obviously each people results might be different. That being said, it doesn't mean it won't happen.

You said it is common sense to change them out once or twice a year? Who's common sense? Yours? Their marketing is that the bushing should last a lifetime.

Heck my monoball suspension last much longer than POS urethane. The trailing arm is almost 2 yrs old and going strong. The rest is about half a season and going strong. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Do you also believe K&N filters last forever and that they filter better than other filters? It's called marketing.
Bushings are a wear item and again, that is a fact. If his poly bushings lasted 10+ years, what does your common sense tell you? That's a long time isn't it! (oh but by who's standards) And it is a wear item, so maybe once in a while you might want to replace those bushings. That's common sense. Is it really that big of a deal to spend $150.00 on bushings every year.

DavidR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dvp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Do you also believe K&N filters last forever and that they filter better than other filters? It's called marketing.
Bushings are a wear item and again, that is a fact. If his poly bushings lasted 10+ years, what does your common sense tell you? That's a long time isn't it! (oh but by who's standards) And it is a wear item, so maybe once in a while you might want to replace those bushings. That's common sense. Is it really that big of a deal to spend $150.00 on bushings every year.</TD></TR></TABLE>

6 years installed.

No telling how long that compliance bushing was deformed.

I agree, the poly bushings are cheap, but, if they wear out as often as some say (with hard race miles), I'd still opt for something that lasted longer, but that's just me.