asianspeed

I'm about to attempt to street tune my car and I've found a lot of great information about WOT tuning (open loop). But I haven't been as successful with part throttle/daily driving tuning (closed loop) information. Can someone break down the differences between part throttle tuning and WOT tuning and what are some effective tuning techniques.

This is my general understanding for tuning WOT on the street:
1) Do it in open loop, so the ecu just uses the values from the .bin.
2) Adjust fuel values for larger injectors.
3) Adjust timing retard according to boost levels. These are only general conservative numbers....true timing can/will be tuned on a dyno.
4) Adjust for a smooth idle.
5) Do a WOT run and adjust the corresponding RPM fuel cells to lean/richen them.
6) Continue until you've got a nice gradual fuel curve.

So could someone please help me with the steps for tuning in part throttle for daily driving (closed loop) with datalogging:
1) ???
2) ???
3) etc...

ccivic

Tune your map in open loop, and stay in open loop forever. Dead serious. Drive around town and start tuning. A well tuned partial throttle map > closed loop.

ryan89crx

ive always done mine closed loop, should i switch to open? how much better will it be?

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by asianspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So could someone please help me with the steps for tuning in part throttle for daily driving (closed loop) with datalogging:
1) ???
2) ???
3) etc...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Tune it on a dyno. Then make adjustments for IAT correction, coolant temp correction, etc after driving around on the street and seeing what it does with variations there.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ccivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tune your map in open loop, and stay in open loop forever. Dead serious. Drive around town and start tuning. A well tuned partial throttle map &gt; closed loop.</TD></TR></TABLE>

grubere

Bad advice so far in this thread.

Part throttle tuning is not all that difficult. You drive around in the car and fill up as much of the lambda log as possible. Get the AFR close to your targets. If you feel hiccups, add or subtract ignition timing to get best results. Part throttle just takes a bit longer to tune as there are more cells to touch vs WOT which is one column and a few rows. Do not tune this on a dyno. You drive part throttle on the road, tune it on the road. The only time you would tune part throttle on a dyno is if you own a dyno and thats for sheer convience. If you dont, the street is free, safe(part throttle should mean you can drive the speed limit), and most effective.

After you do your tuning in a paticular gear. Lets say you do most of your tuning in 3rd gear. Then quickly fill the lambda log in the other gears. Use gear correction to get the AFRs similiar to what you had in 3rd gear.

Last steps are the IAT/ECT corrections. Turn the car off. Let it go fully cold. Then note the AFR as it warms up. It will probably be leaner. Add more fuel in the ECT correction. This days to get right on the money, but its not difficult. Its trial and error for the most part. If you are using Crome, the new Final Value fuel tools should get you pretty close according to Blundar. IATs will be tuned similiarly. Take the car out when its colder. note the IAT difference. Note the AFR difference. Try to get the AFRs with the cooler IATs to be more similiar to those when you tuned the car initially.

As for the whole closed loop and open loop, people don't understand exactly when to use either. Closed loop is GREAT when you can get the car to run smoothly. The fact of the matter is, you have to tune the car significantly richer than one would assume(see lambda target tables) in order to get the car to run smoothly in closed loop. Closed loop is superior in some circumstances as ECT and IAT and various other corrections dont need to be as spot on as in open loop all the time. If your ECT correction is not correct in open loop, your car will run really rich or really lean. With closed loop its still going to target stoich. It corrects your imperfections. Its a great tool. Thats why so many cars are using WB sensors now. They get super accurate 0-5v so their closed loop is VERY efficient. If we could run closed loop with WB feedback, I'd be in heaven. The main reason people like running open loop all the time is because you can target leaner AFRs in cruising to increase fuel efficiency. Often with larger injectors its harder to get the AFR to remain steady as the ECU has a hard time compensating for the various types of injectors and they don't know how to make the best corrections always. Overall it ends up being easier to run the car open loop with the bigger injectors instead of fiddling with the billion tables in the ECU that are used for closed loop.

I should just quickly add in that you should do all your tuning in open loop. If you chose to try closed loop, enable it and TWEAK. Switching from open loop to closed loop, you will need to tweak some things to make everything feel smooth. Open loop will feel smoother, but again if the weather changes, or the engine is running a bit colder, or anything little changes there is nothing to help fix that little error which is why we have O2 sensors.

Hopefully this thread is somewhat helpful. http://www.pgmfi.org, http://www.hondata.com, http://www.evans-tuning.com, and basically anyone that sells tuning supplies are great places to get info. Reading the AEM forums can often be informative as can just reading your WB's manufacturers site. I know innovative's site has some decent tech articles. I suggest a variety of resources so that you can get a broad understanding of what exactly needs to be done. Just looking here you will only get the honda-tech perspective.

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by grubere &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Part throttle tuning is not all that difficult. You drive around in the car and fill up as much of the lambda log as possible. Get the AFR close to your targets. If you feel hiccups, add or subtract ignition timing to get best results. Part throttle just takes a bit longer to tune as there are more cells to touch vs WOT which is one column and a few rows. Do not tune this on a dyno. You drive part throttle on the road, tune it on the road. The only time you would tune part throttle on a dyno is if you own a dyno and thats for sheer convience. If you dont, the street is free, safe(part throttle should mean you can drive the speed limit), and most effective.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why not just tune ignition on a dyno where you can hold RPM steady and vary the load? Its pretty damn easy, and doesn't take that long at all. Way easier and safer than driving around like Brian Spilner with the laptop plugged in pounding the keyboard screaming NOS.

Also, I'm interested in seeing why you think the dyno is different from the road. Do you think is there a difference between say 3000rpm and 70kPa on the dyno and the same on the road?

grubere

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daveG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why not just tune ignition on a dyno where you can hold RPM steady and vary the load? Its pretty damn easy, and doesn't take that long at all. Way easier and safer than driving around like Brian Spilner with the laptop plugged in pounding the keyboard screaming NOS.

Also, I'm interested in seeing why you think the dyno is different from the road. Do you think is there a difference between say 3000rpm and 70kPa on the dyno and the same on the road?</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are absolutely differences in driving on the street and on the dyno. Air resistance being key. The friction between the tires and the road being another. These can be somewhat tuned out, but perfectly. You drive the car on the street, it should be tuned on the street, atleast part throttle. I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise. Also, part throttle needs very little ignition tweaking for the most part. Part throttle isnt about power, its about fuel economy. No one is racing at 10inHG and 60% throttle. You tweak the fuel so its the right ratio and play with the ignition timing a bit to make sure the burn is okay. With part throttle tuning you feel slight bucks if the ignition timing is slighly off. Take a stock map and run it at 16:1 AFR. It will buck and misfire and drive like crap. Add a few degrees of ignition timing and it goes way. There is no reason to go on the dyno for such simple fixes. Paying $150 an hour for what can be done for free is ridiculous. WOT tuning on the dyno is for power and safety. There is no safety issue with tuning part throttle on the streets. You are driving at relatively low speeds. There is no reason you need to break the law when part throttle tuning. How many mph do you need to be traveling to tune 10inHG and 5000rpm? Not that fast.

I understand your point. I've done a LITTLE tuning doing street and dyno. My opinion is if you have access to a load dyno, yea great, tune the whole thing on there but still varify everything is okay on the street. If you have to pay, id rather save myself the $150 and just hit the street. Then just do WOT tuning on the dyno. Load dynos are a matter of convience really. You drive your car on the street, you should tune on the street. Just like if your car is a race car it should be tuned at the track. Not soley, but it definitely shouldn't just be tuned at the dyno and ignored at the track. Simply changing your rev limiter 500rpm plus or minus can make a significant difference in times

.dave

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by grubere &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are absolutely differences in driving on the street and on the dyno. Air resistance being key. The friction between the tires and the road being another. These can be somewhat tuned out, but perfectly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You'll be at the same RPM but a different load value, much like going 40 mph on flat ground and 40 mph up an incline. All thats changing is the force the car is working against.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You drive the car on the street, it should be tuned on the street, atleast part throttle. I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise. Also, part throttle needs very little ignition tweaking for the most part. Part throttle isnt about power, its about fuel economy. No one is racing at 10inHG and 60% throttle. You tweak the fuel so its the right ratio and play with the ignition timing a bit to make sure the burn is okay. With part throttle tuning you feel slight bucks if the ignition timing is slighly off. Take a stock map and run it at 16:1 AFR. It will buck and misfire and drive like crap. Add a few degrees of ignition timing and it goes way.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If its misfiring you'll be able to tell on the dyno as well.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is no reason to go on the dyno for such simple fixes. Paying $150 an hour for what can be done for free is ridiculous.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not referring to tweaking every once in a while, I agree you can do that on the street and be fine, which is why you can datalog and go from there. But in my opinion thats just for various trims/corrections, not redoing the part throttle map.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I understand your point. I've done a LITTLE tuning doing street and dyno. My opinion is if you have access to a load dyno, yea great, tune the whole thing on there but still varify everything is okay on the street. If you have to pay, id rather save myself the $150 and just hit the street. Then just do WOT tuning on the dyno. Load dynos are a matter of convience really. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Part throttle tuning on a dyno is a matter of convenience like you said though. If you have a dyno where you can hold constant load I see no reason not to do part and full throttle tuning on the dyno. Its very easy and doesn't take that much longer. I agree with verifying that everything is consistent when you are out driving on the road, though.

Oh and I hate roller dynos. Steady state is way too convenient and luckily there are three within an hour of me.

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

There is nothing really wrong with keeping the car in closed loop for part throttle. Just use the open loop boost function to kick it into open loop when you start boosting.

I usually tune cars in open loop and get part throttle as good as I can. Then just throw it in closed loop and set a closed loop disable when getting into boost. Keeping closed loop for street cars that you are only going to tune once is a good idea because of conditions changing when you can't nail down ect and IAT for part throttle.


BUT: If you are tuning it yourself and are going to have a wideband in your car all the time. Just tune it in open loop, I think you can get the car way more responsive by keeping it in open loop. It just takes time to tune it out, with the wideband readily available, just drive it around and take some logs and go from there. As long as it doesn't buck or hiccup you are good with going with afrs anywhere from 13.5 - 17.0 in open loop cruising. If your car has hesistation you might wanna run it richer, or like stated add a little timing, which ever seems most logical.

This is by no means the end all of tuning in open or closed loop. Just my preferences.

and like someone already stated if we could just get wideband feedback closed loop like AEM it would be very nice.

adseguy

If I were to put it in steps to tune open loop partial throttle it would be this.

1.) Use the boost gauge and start at around 1.5krpm
2.) I like to use my eye on the AF guage and RPM watching deviantions as I go to about 5.5k rpm.
3.) I make adjustments either by ENTIRE columns or rows.
4.) After the lowest cloumn is good. I'll move on to the next highest making adjustments and so on.
5.) I go 20in/hg -17-14-11-9-5-0.
6.) From 20 to about 11 or 9 I tune for high 14's low 15's AFR or higher if the car doesn't mind it.
7.) From 9-5in/hg low 14 to high 13 AFR and at 0 around mid twelve to low 13's through 2-3 PSI (gives great response). One of the biggest "mistkaes" I see is a lot of people just dip into 11's and low 12's when they arn't in high enough RPM's to make boost and are still WOT (bascially 0PSI). Aim the AFR's to low 13's high 12's with no problem until around 2-3 PSI then go 12.0AFR.


GL sounds like you're on the right track

Easiest solution is to use a closed loop enable when out of boost. They work great and provide consistant gas mileage.

asianspeed

Thanks for everyones input. I think I've got a better understanding of closed/open loop WOT/part throttle tuning. And of course answers lead to more questions.

So with the feedback I'm getting, I'd like to enable the closed loop when not boosting and open loop when I'm in boost, is this possible with uberdata?

Also, I understand that when tuning fuel maps, you want gradual changes in adding and subtracting fuel, you don't want your injectors to go from 30% duty cycle to 90% in an instant once you hit boost. So that being said....how is the transition from closed loop to open loop when going into boost?

Thanks!

TurBros

Yeah was wondering to is "using a closed loop enable when out of boost" just an option in the editors such as Chrome and Uberdata? Do some offer and the others dont? Trying to better understand this, and you people are helping me alot so far. Also heard the term "open loop boost function" is this another function where you can enable disable by the click of a button?

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by asianspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> .

So with the feedback I'm getting, I'd like to enable the closed loop when not boosting and open loop when I'm in boost, is this possible with uberdata?

Crome has this feature with advanced boost tools. Bigwig is working on this feature for uberdata, he actually worked on it last night. I will go test it out when I get a car that i put my wideband in next. But I am pretty sure it will work.

Also, I understand that when tuning fuel maps, you want gradual changes in adding and subtracting fuel, you don't want your injectors to go from 30% duty cycle to 90% in an instant once you hit boost. So that being said....how is the transition from closed loop to open loop when going into boost?

The transistion isn't that crazy. Really when you are spooling up, say 1 psi of boost. Your a/f shoould only be in the mid 12s. Going from 14.7 to 12.4 isn't going to hurt it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TurBros &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah was wondering to is "using a closed loop enable when out of boost" just an option in the editors such as Crome and Uberdata? Do some offer and the others dont? Trying to better understand this, and you people are helping me alot so far. Also heard the term "open loop boost function" is this another function where you can enable disable by the click of a button?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Open loop boost is a user programable "switch" point for the ecu to go into open loop and start depending soley on fuel maps and not o2 sensor. Like above stated Crome has this already and uberdata does but needs some testing at the moment. You can adjust the transition at any point in the map you want to, you could have it switch prior to boost if you wanted to. You just put in the mbar you want it to go into open loop.

asianspeed

that sounds great, big ups to bigwig. I learned a lot from his posts on uberdatas site. Keep me posted on that feature. In the meantime I'll tune my car for open loop as good as I can get it....with a wideband of course. Thanks!

planeman01

great thread gents!

i really liked the step by step outline on the tuning...great for newbs like me who can't afford to **** it up

elpiar

Posted in FAQ. thanks for everyone who took time to write it up.

5thgenallmotor

good info!

asianspeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I were to put it in steps to tune open loop partial throttle it would be this.

1.) Use the boost gauge and start at around 1.5krpm
2.) I like to use my eye on the AF guage and RPM watching deviantions as I go to about 5.5k rpm.
3.) I make adjustments either by ENTIRE columns or rows.
4.) After the lowest cloumn is good. I'll move on to the next highest making adjustments and so on.
5.) I go 20in/hg -17-14-11-9-5-0.
6.) From 20 to about 11 or 9 I tune for high 14's low 15's AFR or higher if the car doesn't mind it.
7.) From 9-5in/hg low 14 to high 13 AFR and at 0 around mid twelve to low 13's through 2-3 PSI (gives great response). One of the biggest "mistkaes" I see is a lot of people just dip into 11's and low 12's when they arn't in high enough RPM's to make boost and are still WOT (bascially 0PSI). Aim the AFR's to low 13's high 12's with no problem until around 2-3 PSI then go 12.0AFR.


GL sounds like you're on the right track

Easiest solution is to use a closed loop enable when out of boost. They work great and provide consistant gas mileage.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Great info adseguy! You've helped me a lot throughout my whole turbo build and I appreciate it! I'd also like to let you know that I finally finished it today and I started tuning it this afternoon. I'll post pics later....I still need to disassemble and paint the charge pipes and stuff like that.

So, I was targetting my afr ratio as follows (got that from bigwigs post on uberdata's page):

13.5 AFR while NA.
12.5 AFR from 0psi to 3psi.
12.25 AFR from 3psi to 5psi.
12.0 AFR from 5psi to 7psi.
11.5 AFR from 7psi to 10psi.

I haven't even played the the timing yet...and I don't plan on it until I take it to a dyno to see at what retard power is loss at...at which point we'll pull it back 1 degree at that point. What I did do is use beerbongskickass.bin to fill my timing tables. So at this point, tuning my timing isn't an issue because I don't have all the information I need to tune it....which would be a dyno graph.

So about tuning the afr....here's the problem that I ran into. I'm using a zeitronix wideband to tune, it's displaying lamda, afr, rpm, tps, egt, and a user input which I have set to my map sensor. Don't I need to get a boost reading to properly tune? Or is it possible to use the map signal and figure it out?

For me to properly set it to the target afr that I stated above, I'd need to know exactly what psi I'm boosting and correlate that to the afr...correct? What I ended up doing to tune it as best as possible was to look at the map signal and when it was flat I figured that it was in vaccum. And I didn't touch any of those values, I left them at stock....which was rather on the rich side. So, when the map signal started to rise, I figured it was building boost. And when it flattened out again at the top, I figured it was at max boost. Which for me was 8-9psi (blue tial spring). Is this the method that people use or is there a better way? How can I get the zeitronix datalogger to read boost? I know I could order their map sensor....which would be a great purchase if it'll help me log boost, it'll up my map to 2.5 bar, and I'll be able to get exact readings to confirm my boost gauge is working. So am I missing something that will help me tune my car?

I'll make more runs later and post the graphs that I collect. My laptop turned off before I could save the datalog, damit.