92TypeR

*NOTE* Before reading any further, I'd first like to say that these cams are WAY too big for this motor.

I should really title this thread: How to overcam a motor!

A friend of mine (racerboyb18c1) is letting me use these temporarily as he builds his 2.0L, he is going to be running 13.6:1 on a 86x89 and will take advantage of the size of these cams.

If you notice the basemap we used, you can see the air-fuels weren't too bad, in fact they were pretty good for something we created from scratch. Power gains from AF tuning was about 3-5hp. The biggest power came from ignition timing. Basemap timing was at 18deg @ WOT. When we were all done, WOT ignition timing was at 36deg. This goes to show how much overlap these cams actually have. We were unable to go beyond 18deg with the ITR cams due to the lack of overlap, on the BC5's we had to stop increasing the timing because we stopped making power, not because of detonation! I havn't had a chance to do a compression test to show how much psi is actually being bled off.

A big thanks goes out to Chris (racerboyb18c1) and Intec Racing for providing their time and services to do this comparison.

Motor specs:
85x87.2 B18C
Benson sleeves
Benson balanced/micropolished crank
Eagle rods
12:1 CP pistons
11thou off the head, 4 thou off the block
roughly 12.3:1 static compression
comptech race header
2.5" T1R exhaust, no cats
STOCK intake arm
STOCK ITR TB
STOCK ITR IM
no portwork
valvegrind and combustion chamber work (85mm chambers)
SuperTech valves, retainers, and valvesprings
Skunk2 Pro cam gears
Crome Pro tuned


Video: RIGHT CLICK SAVE AS


ITR cams vs BC5's


BC5 basemap vs BC5 full tune


BC5 exhaust cam (top) ITR exhaust cam (bottom)


BC5 intake cam (left) ITR intake cam (right)



Modified by 92TypeR at 5:41 PM 2/10/2006


Modified by 92TypeR at 1:40 PM 2/15/2006


Modified by 92TypeR at 1:40 PM 2/15/2006

chameleon

nice comparison! for non ported head you made pretty damn good power, displacement comes through!

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

You had M22's in this motor before right? The BC5's are making roughly the same amount as the M22's are?? Maybe time for a new header and portwork??

*edit* I don't think I've ever seen type r cams go over 200

92TypeR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You had M22's in this motor before right? The BC5's are making roughly the same amount as the M22's are?? Maybe time for a new header and portwork??

*edit* I don't think I've ever seen type r cams go over 200 </TD></TR></TABLE>

Negative. I've only had ITR cams up until this last weekend.

I have BC4's, Skunk2 Pro1 and Skunk2 Pro2's that are going in for more testing. Whichever makes the best power for my setup I'll stick with. At some point I'll be using a DTR 2.0L.

Natural Aspirations

Whats with the exhaust cams on the Buddy clubs, My 3+'s while much much smaller have similar lift and durration on all 3 lobes. I didnt not measure or have any numbers but from glancing hey seem similar. Almost like there is "little" vtec on the exhaust side.

aZnjCC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by crixzc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Whats with the exhaust cams on the Buddy clubs, My 3+'s while much much smaller have similar lift and durration on all 3 lobes. I didnt not measure or have any numbers but from glancing hey seem similar. Almost like there is "little" vtec on the exhaust side.</TD></TR></TABLE>

or maybe the primaries are just "big"

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have BC4's, Skunk2 Pro1 and Skunk2 Pro2's that are going in for more testing. Whichever makes the best power for my setup I'll stick with. At some point I'll be using a DTR 2.0L. </TD></TR></TABLE>

For that motor I would expect the BC4's to make the most peak power, I think the Pro1's might give you some more mid-range. I think the Pro2's are simply too large for your motor with a stock head. I like your choice of header also

Natural Aspirations

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aZnjCC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or maybe the primaries are just "big" </TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, this I know. Just wondering why they kept the mid lobe small, in comarison

b19coupe

Impressive
I like how those cams carry the power into the higher RPM

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

Nice improvements. What did your cam timing end up at ?

: alexander :

hrmm JG is the only one who makes valve springs that will hadle bc4s without binding I wonder how super tech handles bc5's ?

persianprelude

Impressive, the BC5's really extend the power band by about 1400 rpm. And your setup is almost identical to mine except I have skunk2 stg2 cams and JDM ITR header with AEBS manifold.

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suavacito &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hrmm JG is the only one who makes valve springs that will hadle bc4s without binding I wonder how super tech handles bc5's ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh wow guy, you've got a LOT of research to do. Please don't make anymore false comments like this.

Tbone

Nice
Those are my old buddy5's

Here's my dyno with them..
Run #'s 30 and 31 are the buddy 5's
Run 23 is buddyclub 4's.

I couldn't adjust my gears with the buddy 5's as there was no valve to valve clearance on my motor. I can adjust the buddy4 +4 intake +4 ex at the same time. That shows you how much bigger the buddy 5 is compared to the 4.
These dyno's pretty much sum up that i was too overcammed as well with the buddy 5's'

92TypeR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mtber &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice improvements. What did your cam timing end up at ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Cam timing was +1, +1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I couldn't adjust my gears with the buddy 5's as there was no valve to valve clearance on my motor. I can adjust the buddy4 +4 intake +4 ex at the same time. That shows you how much bigger the buddy 5 is compared to the 4.
These dyno's pretty much sum up that i was too overcammed as well with the buddy 5's'</TD></TR></TABLE>

These BC5's are DAMN big. I really think only 14:1+ motors will benefit from these cams. Anything less and your effectively overcamming the motor due to bleeding off almost a point in compression!

You had(have) 1mm oversized right? We didn't see any V2V clearance issues, but P2V was a big concern, keeping us to a 1.5-2 degree adjustment window.

The next cams to go in will be the BC4's I think. I will most likely end up with the Pro1's or Pro2's, considering I've built the car mainly for road racing, and they seem to have the best midrange out of all the cams I've seen.

I'll have some videos up as soon as my desktop PC is fixed.

Black R

why do you say it's overcammed?

it looks like it's making 15whp up top over the itr cams.....

92TypeR

Overcammed mainly becaues with a much milder cam (in comparison), ie: BC4's, Pro1/2 and M22xx, I can make more power. The overlap is so big on the BC5's it bleeds off ~45psi of cylinder pressure! Another downside to the huge duration, is that it limits camgear adjustment. I could go and machine my valve reliefs and compensate by changing the cam timing even more to reduce overlap, but that is not going to happen, especially because I have about one week left with these as a tester, and frankly I'm not trying to set any peak power records.

The BC5's were tuned as far as they could go on my motor. If they only match ITR cams up until 6500rpms, I'd say they are too big for my current setup.

I've recieved a few comments about my overcamming statement, but I'll stand true to the fact. Of course these cams can make good power, just not on my setup. If Tbone's 13.6:1 2.0L is overcammed, my 12.3:1 2.0L is most definately overcammed.

I have $20 that says the BC4's that go in next make more power everywhere compared to the BC5's.

stevel

I bet with a better IM and a bigger TB you would be able to carry out the powerband further and have some higher peak #'s. It looks like the engine is running out of air.

s

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Overcammed mainly becaues with a much milder cam (in comparison), ie: BC4's, Pro1/2 and M22xx, I can make more power. The overlap is so big on the BC5's it bleeds off ~45psi of cylinder pressure! Another downside to the huge duration, is that it limits camgear adjustment. I could go and machine my valve reliefs and compensate by changing the cam timing even more to reduce overlap, but that is not going to happen, especially because I have about one week left with these as a tester, and frankly I'm not trying to set any peak power records.

The BC5's were tuned as far as they could go on my motor. If they only match ITR cams up until 6500rpms, I'd say they are too big for my current setup.

I've recieved a few comments about my overcamming statement, but I'll stand true to the fact. Of course these cams can make good power, just not on my setup. If Tbone's 13.6:1 2.0L is overcammed, my 12.3:1 2.0L is most definately overcammed.

I have $20 that says the BC4's that go in next make more power everywhere compared to the BC5's.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I understand what you're saying, but your graphs weren't indicative of that.

I'd like to see some jun 3's on your motor...

And some toda B or C just for flavor.

Anyway, thanks for posting the graphs. I like how the bc5's breathe up top. I hope you can find some cams that give the same or more from 7k+ and some midrange gains as well.

Please post up when you test those other cams so we can see the comparison.

92TypeR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd like to see some jun 3's on your motor...

And some toda B or C just for flavor. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I sold my JUN 3's a year ago to fund the 2.0L DOH!

If anyone has a set of cams that they want tested, I can see about getting them on the rollers. I am really interested in trying to find some M22xx's to test, I think they would make great midrange, much like the Pro1.

WHITFIELD-TUNED

jun3s rock

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HOOKUPS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">jun3s rock </TD></TR></TABLE>


yup, for some reason jun 3's seem to love 2L motors.....

jt-sport

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Negative. I've only had ITR cams up until this last weekend.

I have BC4's, Skunk2 Pro1 and Skunk2 Pro2's that are going in for more testing. Whichever makes the best power for my setup I'll stick with. At some point I'll be using a DTR 2.0L. </TD></TR></TABLE>
did you've another test ???? update

jt-sport

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HOOKUPS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">jun3s rock </TD></TR></TABLE>
isnt that bc 4 was the copy of jun 3 primarry lobes????

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice
Those are my old buddy5's

Here's my dyno with them..
Run #'s 30 and 31 are the buddy 5's
Run 23 is buddyclub 4's.

I couldn't adjust my gears with the buddy 5's as there was no valve to valve clearance on my motor. I can adjust the buddy4 +4 intake +4 ex at the same time. That shows you how much bigger the buddy 5 is compared to the 4.
These dyno's pretty much sum up that i was too overcammed as well with the buddy 5's'

http://is.rely.net/1-925-44427-l-6JQ...ZtGckbBxwA.jpg</TD></TR></TABLE>
shieet.. if it was true that the bc4 primarry was the copy of jun3 primarry, so we could said that any cam bigger than jun 3 was not recomended for under 2.0L form.. overcammed
im i right guys???


Modified by jt-sport at 7:58 AM 2/16/2006

: alexander :

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Oh wow guy, you've got a LOT of research to do. Please don't make anymore false comments like this. </TD></TR></TABLE>

WRONG

FYI I have a set of BC4's the BC springs bind @ 12mm of lift while the cams require 12.3mm.

When I researched it JG was the only one who had valve springs with 14mm before coil bind that was less than 6 months ago