Catch 22

The news of the ECHC Kumho deal being shitcanned by NASA has brought very little response given the magnitude of the announcement and its potential long term repercussions.

Some of us are curious as to why. Seriously. Just curious.

So HC racers and potential HC racers vote here. You can do so anonymously.
I'd love to leave the poll options open, but that never works.

JMU R1

There's not much to be said because I think some people are already making up their minds to leave.

For me, I need to get more information and possibly go through with a petition about the whole deal rather than sitting around and doing nothing about it. If nothing comes of it, and the spec tire comes down in a manner that I don't agree with then I'll be left with little choice but to go with SCCA for the time being.

Not knowing the details its hard to say but we'll know them soon enough.

I can say this, I think its a bad move to make a deal with someone (a sponsor), then renege on it because of some possible future deal. If that future deal falls apart or doesn't meet expectations you've hurt any chance of getting back with the original sponsor. Furthermore, other sponsors might look at that and decide they don't want to deal with you either.

SJR

I think it's been made pretty clear that the only tire deal to be made if you want to run with NASA is Toyo. And you don't get to make the deal, it's been made for you. Like it or leave it.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves"

RacerBowie

As someone who has been 100% unaffected by the whole thing, it has really resembled watching a train wreck in slow motion.

chrisb

I don't know what to do now. My car will never really be SCCA legal and SCCA's rules for IT just suck. I am sorry, race cars don't have power steering, windshield wiper bottles, stock flammable door panels, blower motors through which fire can enter the cabin and a race integra should not weigh as much as the street version etc. But NASA has really screwed the pooch good. I have 8 Kumhos in the basement but I can't run them. I don't have the budget anymore to buy new tires when I don't need them and turn down killer deals with Kumho for crappy deals with Toyo. And to the west coast guys, I am really not whining. I just don't have the money you guys have. Period. Hell, I even tried to smooth things over with the Southeast director and can't even get a reply by email. I don't know man. I wish I could sell the car but no one wants to pay anything for race cars now. (Ok, maybe that sentence is whining, hehe.)

George Knighton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As someone who has been 100% unaffected by the whole thing, it has really resembled watching a train wreck in slow motion.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That pretty much sums up this old man's opinion.

1gCRX90

I don't care. I'm done with NASA forever.

NASA doesn't care. They've made it clear they care 0% about the racer's opinions, and if you're an SCCA cross-over, well to quote Ryan Flaherty, they don't want "SCCA's scraps."

Apparently they have some other plans that are some big secret, and it will be better than the Kumho deal, or maybe the Kumho deal threatened what they already had pushed on the rest of the country. Who knows. The only thing that is for certain is that the membership and the racers aren't worthy of being informed of exactly WTF is going on and why. "Just send your money and STFU."

What's left to be said?

1gCRX90

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know what to do now. My car will never really be SCCA legal and SCCA's rules for IT just suck. I am sorry, race cars don't have power steering, windshield wiper bottles, stock flammable door panels, blower motors through which fire can enter the cabin and a race integra should not weigh as much as the street version etc. But NASA has really screwed the pooch good. I have 8 Kumhos in the basement but I can't run them. I don't have the budget anymore to buy new tires when I don't need them and turn down killer deals with Kumho for crappy deals with Toyo. And to the west coast guys, I am really not whining. I just don't have the money you guys have. Period. Hell, I even tried to smooth things over with the Southeast director and can't even get a reply by email. I don't know man. I wish I could sell the car but no one wants to pay anything for race cars now. (Ok, maybe that sentence is whining, hehe.)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Chris - just a thought - have you looked at SCCA Production rules with respect to your car? I know it's prepped beyond what is legal in IT, but maybe there's a home for your car in possibly E-Prod? I don't know very much at all about what models are classed where, and if your GSR even fits in E-Prod, but I know there are a lot of additional prep items that are allowed there that might make your car a fit.

You might not be a front runner right away, especially if you run on your Kumhos and everyone else is on slicks. But you can always ebay your Kumhos and do something different.

Just a thought.....

Dented Rx7

chris, yes you may be stuck as for as kuhmo money, but if you are strictly looking to race your car against HC guys, sign up under the new NASA PT points system, your car will fit under there, and around here you will be in the same run group and racing against the HC guys

that doesn't help with contingency money i know but does give you a place to race....or run HC but not for points

the EP for scca is the only place where your car might work (but you will be out-spent by some people
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know what to do now. My car will never really be SCCA legal and SCCA's rules for IT just suck. I am sorry, race cars don't have power steering, windshield wiper bottles, stock flammable door panels, blower motors through which fire can enter the cabin and a race integra should not weigh as much as the street version etc. But NASA has really screwed the pooch good. I have 8 Kumhos in the basement but I can't run them. I don't have the budget anymore to buy new tires when I don't need them and turn down killer deals with Kumho for crappy deals with Toyo. And to the west coast guys, I am really not whining. I just don't have the money you guys have. Period. Hell, I even tried to smooth things over with the Southeast director and can't even get a reply by email. I don't know man. I wish I could sell the car but no one wants to pay anything for race cars now. (Ok, maybe that sentence is whining, hehe.)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Catch 22

Chris.
You can run EP regionally and probably do OK as the car sits right now. Regional Prod competition tends to be much weaker than National.
To compete Nationally, you'd need ALOT more work and money.

You can run Prod on those Kumhos if you want to. Then buy slicks once you use them all up.
I think the GSR Prod weight is something silly like 2100lbs. IM Phil, I'm pretty sure he just won EP in his region in my old car.

emwavey

I'm just glad I'm not the one in charge of this thing. I feel bad for the guy having to make these decisions and realizing that not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome.

I'm not pissed or anything, just kind of apathetic. Two or three years ago when my wife and I went to the HypeRfest, I was very attracted to the whole format from the stand point of racing in front of an audience, a younger crowd, actual entertainment-type events, etc. It seemed simple to merely jump in with an ITA car for a race or two a season. The tire thing is just one more small item to consider in general. However, even from a non-racing participant perspective, learning that the deal from Kumho is being disregarded makes me a little upset. I don't know all the details, but if F1 can have two tire manufacturers, why the heck can't Honda Challenge? Might seem too childish of an idea, but really, why not?

It seems though that because H-4 and ITA are starting to split even further apart that this is eventually going to force me to choose as I become more proficient as a driver, and the car is built further to the limit of the rules. I have greater ties to the SCCA at this point, and for more personal reasons then racing reasons, I'd have to choose the SCCA. I've been with them longer, know more people there, etc. Not trying to turn this into an SCCA vs. NASA thing, but like I said, because H4 and ITA are drifting further away from one another, to be competitive in one, means to give up something in the other... or make changes to the car each time, or resolve myself to not being competitive. I don't have the time or money to really compete in both so in a way it does become an SCCA vs NASA. Not that one is better then the other, just even more different.

What will I be doing? I'll probably keep the car as I really didn't really want to sell it anyway. I'm planning on attending the instructor clinic with NASA at VIR this month. Later in the season, I might try and run with the folks in the MARRS series on Hoosiers, and keep the Toyos for either a rain event or if I want to run in an HC event.

-dave, who's learning about being simple.
8)

CRX Toad

I have to agree with this. I would hope that NASA is listening and would value the opinions of racers but only time will tell.

It is funny to NASA is with the Wheel/Tire deals. Can anyone say Konig?

So Kuhmo isn't the ECHC Title Sponsor but is the contingency still in place? Obviously someone thinks that this is a good deal with Toyo.

We could be reading between the lines because there hasn't been much communication on the deal. Hopefully it will pan out for the best and all the hype will just be hype.

chad

hey....let's go work at DOMINO's and wear a PAPA JOHN's uniform and expect to get a paycheck.

Seriously, did you all think that was gonna work...

chrisb

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey....let's go work at DOMINO's and wear a PAPA JOHN's uniform and expect to get a paycheck.

Seriously, did you all think that was gonna work...</TD></TR></TABLE>

NASA is paying you Chad? Cool.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey....let's go work at DOMINO's and wear a PAPA JOHN's uniform and expect to get a paycheck.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The difference is that we pay them $200-$300/weekend, and apparently they dont care about the existing racers or what they want. Taxation without representation, if you will. The only difference is that for most of us its easier to take your 'tax' elsewhere (scca, emra, etc).

Consider this. I work for a software company that has a lot of long standing, very good customers. If the customers got together (and we do this once a year) and they all said "hey we want these features" and everyone agreed thats what they want. And our company says "well f you guys, we're gonna build it however we want and not include them" on the thought that we dont care if the old customers stay or not because we'll just get new customers to replace them.

That doesnt sound like very smart business, now does it?

johng

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can say this, I think its a bad move to make a deal with someone (a sponsor), then renege on it because of some possible future deal. If that future deal falls apart or doesn't meet expectations you've hurt any chance of getting back with the original sponsor. Furthermore, other sponsors might look at that and decide they don't want to deal with you either.</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2
I was happy for your guys when I read the initial announcement (that's now vanished). Then I read the next announcement and don't know what to think. What the hell's going on?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As someone who has been 100% unaffected by the whole thing, it has really resembled watching a train wreck in slow motion.</TD></TR></TABLE>

x3

JeffS

Looks like the sellout is complete...

Evan55

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So Kuhmo isn't the ECHC Title Sponsor but is the contingency still in place? Obviously someone thinks that this is a good deal with Toyo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
this is the million dollar question

Whats interesting to me is how NASA has long claimed that being a commercial for-profit entity is an advantage in that they listen to their membership and more agile and active in keeping their user base happy. Its starting to look like that may not be the case. They may have realized that corporate money is the jackpot, and are thus willing to abandon their original ideals in the interest of profit.

although I cant say the SCCA is by default better. This year SM went to a national spec tire. And the "winner" of that spec tire deal was neither the fastest tire nor most economical as determined in their testing.....

FLATOUTRACING

Couple of points:

1) Chris B. talk with Phil Phillips, his car isn't even close to be built to the extent of the E Prod rules and he won both the MARRS and NY Region titles. Your other choice is SPU which at least around here has a few cars in the class.

2) Kumho contingency will apply for individual races but you won't get the year end prize if you win your class because rumor is that effective Aug. 1st everyone is on a spec tire.

3) And lastly you all need look at the decision from both sides. Obviously I was originally and still am upset about the Toyo deal but look at it from their perspective. NASA is an organization run for profit. There are at least 20 + classes that make up NASA. Except for one class (ECHC) the rest are ok with the deal.

If you are the head of NASA and Toyo is making it lucrative for your organization and the majority of classes what are you going to do?????

Are you going to turn away significant $$$$$ for a group of 25 racers?? Not likely.

NASA made a business decision that was in their best interests which they have a right to do.

I am upset at the way it was handled but the botton line is that NASA will do what is best for them not us. If the majority of race groups were against it and threatened to leave they wouldn't have signed the deal. One group isn't going to kill them (though it kills us).

I've run my last HC and NASA race and am not going to keep beating a dead horse.

CRX Lee

Chris,

I don't recall but if your racecar is a CRX then it is a very good potential F Prod Limited prep car like mine. It is not going to be inexpensive to run but not nearly as expensive as a full prep EP car and it will have a much greater chance of being competitive than in Ep where it will be helplessly, hopelessly outgunned. EP is also more of a money throwing contest than FP. I', looking forward to running FP again this season and being pretty quite comptitive regionally. You will want to switch to slicks once the Kumjos are gone. Let me know, I'll happily share my research as I think the FP-LP CRX is a very viable car cost vs. competitiveness.

mstewar

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've run my last HC and NASA race and am not going to keep beating a dead horse.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

and seeing multiple statements like this is what is the most depressing part..

slammed_93_hatch

any one think that maybe the deal with khumo didn't have any merit to begin with?


From the little knowledge i have RD don't have the authority to do things like, go get a title sponsorship, unless NASA has given them the authority expressly.

thats just speculation, one would need more details to know for sure though.


The only thing i know is that im doing my first race this weekend, and couldn't be more excited!!

JMU R1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
3) And lastly you all need look at the decision from both sides. Obviously I was originally and still am upset about the Toyo deal but look at it from their perspective. NASA is an organization run for profit. There are at least 20 + classes that make up NASA. Except for one class (ECHC) the rest are ok with the deal.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The question is, how many of those 20+ classes are strong? NASA Spec Miata in our region usually pulls around a dozen to 15 cars. 944 Cup is strong, but they're not national. Pro Sedan, Spec Neon, GTI Cup, SE-R Cup, Mustang/Camaro Challenge, and USTCC are non-existent. Spec E30 is growing but again, no more than 10 cars. American Iron is the only class I can think of that is similar in strength to HC.

Maybe the other regions have a much stronger mix of the other classes but as I see it, you're pushing away several dozen current, future, and former HC guys. Will there enough people joining the other classes to make up for it? Doubtful. Because the spec tire rule was not what was holding people back from joining those classes in the first place.

JMU R1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">any one think that maybe the deal with khumo didn't have any merit to begin with?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good point, maybe that's the case.

krbobcat

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've run my last HC and NASA race and am not going to keep beating a dead horse.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm pretty much to this point now too. I just don't feel like NASA even wants me anymore, at all. Yes, I could go and race in the new PT class or whatever, but why? It kind of sounds like putting a bandaid over your bloody stump after your arm gets ripped off and saying "There, fixed!", isn't it? I wanted to race in an established class with the best this country has to offer at a real national championship race. Now I can't, in any way. So.....why?

But then I turn around and see that SCCA and IT racing loves having me there! Over the last two years or so, all they've been doing is listening to the competitors on what they wanted. Then the great part is, after collecting those opinions, they've actually acted on it! Neat concept! So now I have a great racecar that's competitive in a very popular (and gaining more interest) class that has a current list of at least 12 cars from at least 6 or 7 manufacturers that I believe have a legitimate shot at winning. That's just awesome, I don't care who you are. It's pretty much the same in any IT class right now. My only drawback, is the lack of a real National Championship race. But, I love the ARRC. Year after year, it's the most fun I have on and off of the track. So you know what? I'll take it (and my "SCCA scraps") and go play in their sandbox.

I just feel bad for the H1 guys right now. They really have no where to go. Also, for those who want to do more than the IT rules allow you, seriously look into limited prep Prod. It's another great program SCCA has done over the last couple of years to make it easier for people to race. It's done a great job of revamping the Prod classes!