riceboy

Just for disscussionary purposes......

Block Girdles, not block guards, but girdles, like the piece like Z10 makes to take pressure off of the main caps.

Has anyone noticed that the D-series are the only honda motors to come with a block girdle that connects to all of the main caps? The GS-R girdle only connects to the #2, #3, and #4 main caps. Although the GS-R girdle only attaches to the 2,3, and 4 main caps, would you think that it is neccacary for the #1 and #5 to be connected as well, since those are the ends of the crank that attach to the font main and the oil pump, those sould be suffieciently braced. But why would honda then go to the trouble to make a girdle for the D series that connects to all five main caps? The D16 rod ratio is 1.52:1 the B18C1 ratio is 1.54:1, not much difference there, though the rod ratio primarily effects side loading, keep in mind that the engines ability to stay stable under high RPM is a direct factor derived from the r/s ratio. Though if you picture a piston on its way down the cylinder on the power stroke, this is where side loading and bearing pressure come into play, assuming that spark is at or near TDC, when the pistons force is placed on the rod there is downward pressure from the force created by combustion, this pressure is sent through all of the moving parts to the crankshaft in order to transfer energy and get the crank to turn, but picture the main bearings during this process, the main bearings are absorbing alot of shock, though the shock is being transferred to a rotational mass (crankshaft), the load on them is still present. The block girdle comes into play here, by reducing the torsional vibration and twisting of the crank, there is less shock and vibration absorbed by the main bearings.

But is this process even effective? Yes, the main bearings wear less quickly, that is a given. But does the block girdle shave oil thereby offsetting any "good" that it would do? I am yet to see a block girdle that does not have an abundance of "sharp edges" this shaves oil, espicially oil that is slung off of the crank at high RPM that will never make it back to the crank, and being that the rod bearings are the most diffucult to lubricate part of the recriprocating mass, this "lost oil" that is sitting on the block girdle, now becomes very important. Shaving oil in a high RPM motor, espicially those LSVTECs and CRVTECs running around with no oil squirters, is not "good", for those cylinder walls' lubrication is far more important to the engine life than the life of the main bearings.

But back to rod ratio and the relationship to the main bearings for a moment, picture the piston at the point of maximum side loading (approximately mid-stroke) on the power stroke, as the piston is moving down the cylinder, the rod is angled in the opposite direction of the side load, with the majority of this downward pressure being absorbed by the rod bearings, but picture the main bearings at this point during the cycle, with the rod pushing at approximately a forty five degree angle, this point in the cycle is putting stress on the main bearings as well. At a forty five degree angle (or there about) there is no way that the distribution of pressure is equal, since there is only two bolts that are holding the main cap in anyway. The purpose of the main bearings is not to absorb pressure or tortional vibration, it is to provide an adequate surface for the crankshaft to rotate on. But in high HP/high RPM applications this "duty" of the main bearings seems to include other things.

Honda motors are built well, that is why things of this nature hardly ever come into play. Hondas have generous cooling systems, good oiling properties, and harmonic balancers to keep the engine stable under extreme load. This topic is just solely me being bored at home on my day off from work looking to spark a conversation.


[Modified by riceboy, 12:09 AM 3/22/2002]

non-VTEC

the B18C1 VTEC has a rod to stroke ratio of 1.581:1

the B18B1 non-VTEC has a rod to stroke ratio of 1.539:1

the B16A1 Del-Sol VTEC has a rod to stroke ratio of 1.745:1

i would imagine honda did take into consideration that the B18C1 has a better rod ratio than most other engines they produce and so they felt that having the girdle on only the 3 middle main caps was enough. the B16A has a much better rod to stroke ratio and has NO girdle at all.

so when looking at the D-series engine which has one of the worst rod to stroke ratios (1.52:1) Honda decided to put a stronger girdle on that bottom end for the purpose of reliability because they know that the SOHC VTEC engine will be reved and stressed allot.

that's the best i could come up with........anyone else want to add to this?

riceboy

True, my B18C1 rod ratio was four one hundredths off, good call, but what is your opinion on bearing wear as opposed to oil starvation?

Damn I wish Honda had of put oil squirters in the B18A/B and the B20B/Z.

non-VTEC

bearing wear is unavoidable especially if your hard on the throttle. the harder on the throttle you are the more downward thrust/load there is on the upper rod bearings. driving the car even at a notmal pace/speed/rpm causes wear...there's NO way around it.......but the harder you are on the engine the faster they will wear out.

i have a set of rod bearings that came out of my 95 B18B1 with 70k miles on them. they all had major noticable wear on the upper half of the bearing right where the oiling hole is (where the most load occurs). i asked a few engine builders and experts and it's "normal" wear.

on the main bearings there was more noticable wear on the center bearings probably because there is no girdle on the B18B engine. the 1 and 5 main bearing looked "OK" but there was still some wear on them.

i highly doubt there is any oil starvation in any honda engine. the oiling cababilities from these small engines are incredible. they run some pretty high oil pressures even for a "stock" oil pump. i get 80-90psi of oil pressure at redline which is almost double what most north american V8, V6 and some 4cyl engines have at any RPM range. and with 80-90psi of oil pressure you can guarentee the bearings and cams are getting plenty of oil. as long and the crank case is toped up with the right ammount.

so if i were you i would worry more about bearing wear than oil starvation. make sure you or your engine builder knows how you check the proper bearing clearences. having the proper clearence will help alot. also your driving habbits will also dictate the life of the engine allong with proper maintanence and good oil.

riceboy

The way that you describe your bearings is the exact same way that I would describe mine that I pulled out of my B18A1 before I had my LSVTEC built, and my engine builder is quite knowledgeable by the way. I will do all my own work to my motor except the bottom end. I let that be done by him. But anyways, In my first post, I ended with the fact that honda has exceptional oiloing systems, but the reason I wish all the B18A/B and the B20B/Z had the oil squirters like the B16A, is that they do an exceptional job of oiling the cylinder walls at the startup of the motor as well during hard driving. I have to agree with you that half of motor longetivity is the way that you treat it, and considering my motor is already built, this topic is meerely for disscussional purposes only, since mostly every message board on the internet is filled with boring "how to swap a B16A into a civic" or "what exhaust should I buy" posts. I'm not by any means saying that hondas have bad oiling characteristics, I'm simply looking for a "deep thoughts" conversation. Personally I'm gonna use the OEM honda GSR girdle on my motor, that is if I cant find the spoon piece that I saw on hybrid honda a few months ago, that was a nice piece, plus it has a five quart oil pan with it, but I am yet to find it for sale anywhere. One thing that I would like to have had done when my motor was being built would have been to have the oil orfices on the rod bearings opened up. Another reason that I like the oil squirters on honda motors is that they are aimed directly at piston pin, lubricating that very well. Speaking of the piston pin though, I just bought the Endyn/Eagle rods for my LSVTEC that was recently built, and I noticed that at the piston pin location on the rod there were oil orfices intigrated into the rods, I wish I had of taken a picture of them, it is a very thoughtful job on oiling procedures. I'll see if I can get shold of a pic online somehow, highly doubtful though. And another thought on the oil squirters, I was going to try to have them "retro-fitted" to my LS block, but it would have involved way too much work, the rear oil passege in the block of a B18A1 is not flat like the one on the B16A1, the B16A1 oil squirters are the ones that I have, although I was told that hthe oil passage in the B20 is flat so the fabrication procedure is less diffucult and more reliable. Oh well.

non-VTEC

from what i can recall on the many many articals and posts i've read up on on the Endyn message board that the under piston oil squirters were not really meant for oiling the cylinder walls. they were primarily designed to help cool the piston down. seeing how it's directly pointed to the bottom of the piston and piston pin and not to the cylinder walls?

i also recall reading that once you replace the stock honda cast pistons with aftermarket forged pistons you really dont need the oil squirters because the forged pistons run much cooler than the stock cast ones. i'm sure they are a good thing to have but there are many many honda and non honda race engines without them so i guess they really arent "that" important.

one thing i noticed about my eagle rods is that it's lacking the oiling hole on the bog end of the rod like the stock rod. i think that that oiling hole does a better job and supplying oil to the cylinder walls than the under piston squiters.

as the crank rotates that rod and the oil pump is presurizing the oil through the crankshaft oiling holes the pressure is coming out from the rod journals oiling holes and supplying oil to the bearings. that small hole on the stock rod becomes a oil squirter and because of the rotation of the crank it techinically "oils" the cylinder walls as it spins. and because it rotatates it "splashes" oil oll over the cylinder walls. (i hope this makes sense)

here's a pic of the eagle rod........you can see one oil hole on the small end of the rod. there is another hole on the other side. i'm sure you know this already though.



this is my B20 with a OEM GS-R crank girdle installed:

riceboy

I noticed that about the Endyn rods as well, the lack of the oil hole on the connecting rod, AEBS opens those holes in an attempt to increase their oil "abundancy" in the travel to the top of the stroke. The lubricatin via the crankshaft is also what I ment about the fact I wish I had been able to open up those orfices when I was having my motor built, because they are the lifline of the engine. Granted, this procedure is negladigble (spelling?) at best, but I have a tendancy to sit and think about these type of things when I get bored. And what I was saying about the oil squirters as far as lubrication of the cylinder walls was ment about the start up of the motor, when say the motor is cold and has been sitting overnight the amonut of oil on the cylinder walls is nil, the oil squirters pressureize immediately on start up there for aiding, but no completely responsible for, the lubrication of the cylinder walls at start up. And yes, the oil is for cooling of the piston. If you have ever torn down a honda motor with many miles on it (I'm sure you have, or you speak like it anyway) you will notice that the ovaling process that normally takes place in any piston engine is not near as bad or sometime not even present in a Honda motor, due solely to the ability that Honda has at cooling the piston. When the cast piston heats up, it becomes oval and flexes in the cylinder (yea, I know this is basic internal engine geometry, but I am trying to get somewhere with this) The ability for a Honda to cool the piston is not just on oil squirters, as they are an aid like you said, I am just fond of them since they do aid in lubrication as well as cooling, which I am a big fan of in a high power street motor, espicially since I live in Texas where the summer is just a long streak of 100+ degree days. But the ability for a Honda to cool the piston so well also revolves around the open deck design that is used in the majority of the Honda motors. I used to have a Prelude Si 4WS 92 model, and in the Texas heat that thing would struggle to not over heat, and I watched the cooling system and had a brand new radiator and ran the cooling fans all the time, the car would still over heat. The reason, the H series are closed deck motors. And by the way, I like the picture of the GSR block girdle, it is one of the better pictures that I have seen of it. I have a hard time finding sharp edges in that piece.

non-VTEC

i wonder if eagle didnt put the oiling holes on the big end of the rod because it may weaken the rod itself?

riceboy

I doubt that that would be true because the Eagle rods are not open ended grain like the crowers, I am not firmiliar with the crowers, and I do not know if they have the oiling holes on the big end. But if neither of the aftermarket rods have the oiling holes to spray oil on the cylinders then this would prove another bonus to having the oil squirters when running after market rods. Now, what I wonder is on LSVTECs and CRVTECs since the oiling holes on the bearings on that crank are considerably smaller than the ones on the B16A and B18C and those are the motors that are designed to rev to eight thousand RPM, bearing the fact that the valve trains capability to sustain revs is a great bearing on the rev limit of the engine but also the oil holes on the rod and main bearings lubricate the rod and main bearings aid in the ability to sustain high revs. We all know that the CRVTEC and the LSVTEC bottom ends can stand up to the high rpm abuse, as they have for a while now. But the B18C1 was designed very well froma reliability standpoint, that motor can take some abuse. Also, one of the main reasons that the CRVTECs and the LSVTECs can last and stand up to the high rpm is what you have mentioned in an earlier post, that Hondas have higher oil pressure than any other car on the market, so they can keep oil pressure in the system even with the oil feed tap run for the VTEC solonoid. But now that I have ventured quite far off topic, what do you think. Wonder if anyone else will join the "deep thoughts" converstaion.

non-VTEC

accually i dont belive the LS/VTEC and CR/VTEC is as reliable as many would think. it can be "made" more reliable with upgraded rods crank girdles and the use of a VTEC oil pump but the rod to stroke ratio still poses a problems at higher rpm.

using a B18B1 or B20 bottom end with a rod to stroke ratio of 1.539:1 spinning at 8000+rpm the pistons are taveling much faster than the B18C with a rod to stroke ratio of 1.58:1 due to the shorter rod of the LS/B20. so with the faster piston speeds there is also more wear on the cylinder walls and bearings and rings........of course we have all seen LS/VTEC and CR/VTEC's run for thousands of miles but if we were to have a B18C vs. LS/VTEC in a longevity test i'm sure the B18C would be the winner. even if the LS/VTEC survives 8000+ rpm as long as a B18C there would be much more noticable wear and tear on the internals. B18C was designed to rev.....B18B/B20 was not........

i dont know why i'm telling you this i'm sure you know this already.

i'm sure the under piston oil squirters are a good idea to have one the B20 or B18B but it might not be very cost effective? i belive each oil squirter cost close to 80 bucks from the dealer......maybe a external oil cooler would be more effective??

i was amazed at the ammount of oil that get's up to the cylinder head on a LS engine. at the shop we ran one with no valve cover for a few seconds with some card board on the front and back side of the head to keep oil from spashing out and it still managed to make one huge mess........honda's get ALOT of oil up to the cylinder head. i could only imagine the VTEC head gets even more.

one thing i didnt know was that the oiling holes on the crankshaft of the LS/B20 was smaller than the B18C...........interesting........

blkwidw96

this is more of a question to add to your conversation since you both seem highly educated in the workings of the honda engine. The oil cooler suggestion was made which would cool down oyur oil but it still is leaving the pistons with out the cool down benefits of the oil squirters. I was wondering if either of you have any experience or information on how much the oil squirters actually cool the pistons. That would be an interesting project next time someone gets bored in the shop.

Also do you two feel that it would be necessary to install the squirters on a b20 with the b18b head that has the standard f-max turbo running on 8psi or would an oil cooler be ok? It currently isn't overheating but I am sure any extra heat I can dissipate would be good. Also if you were running ceramic coated pistons would that too help alleviate the oval shaped wear on the ngines a little bit more?

non-VTEC

adding the oil squirters is a good thing but would requre you to totally tear down the engine all over again.

how much would it help cool the pistons? quite a bit i would imagine. combustion tempraturs on the top of the piston can reach over 1000 deg especially with a turbo charger like you have. so that heat will transfer from the top of the piston to the bottom. typical engine oil temprature is about 90-110 deg so i would imagine it would help quite a bit............BUT like i said before if you are running forged pistons they run cooler than the stock honda cast pistons and can disipate heat better.........

a front mount engine oil cooler is a pretty good idea with turbo since the oil gets really hot.

riceboy

As far as the ceramic coating goes with the pistons and ovaling, you might notice a little difference, but not enough to make you **** a brick by any means. Pistons naturally oval, no matter what precautions are taken the piston ring is actually the major offset of the ovaling process on the cylinder walls. When a piston is going up and down the cylinder, the piston ring is constantly contracting and expanding due to heat expansion and dissapation as well as the fact that it is adjusting to the pre worn paths that it has imbedded in the cylinder walls. But this is all expected to take place inside the motor. Think about the hottest and coldest parts of the cylinder during the cycle, after the spark plug fires and the piston begins its downward motion, this is when the piston is heated to the maximum temperature that it sees. The piston expands in a self attempt to cool itself. The piston will always expand on the sides with the least amount of material, simply because these sides are of the thinnest metal composition. Sorry if I sound like I'm "swearing the vadiliity of oil squirters" cause I'm not trying to, but they are very useful little devices. Since the oil squirters are aimed at the underside of the piston and are designed to cool the "skirt" of the piston, this somewhat offsets the process of the thinner parts of the piston heating up. The thermal coating on the piston could, in theory help keep the heat from building on the piston, but there would still be heat absorbtion, just less of it in proportion. I am not firmiliar with the chemical composition of the thermal barrier coating, so what I wonder is does the coating itself have the ability to expand and contract? Otherwise I would think that it would eventually start to crack.

1 2 NV

god damn u guys must b bored as hell, haha. very very good discussion. makes for lots of thoughts on the subjects. 2 thumbs up.