weiRtech

customer wanted to put dual webers on his A20A1. he sent me a gasket, so i helped him out. i had probably somewhere around 70 hours into these including design, programming, machine time, welding... i chose to do them because there was no need for injector bungs. that made the project a lot easier. he was also very very specific on providing specs which also made it easier. he was patient too! in general he was a great customer.

StrangerWitCandy

Very cool, and nice workmanship... but why? i always thought it was a big acheivment when the world switched over from carbs to fuel injection

legendboy

I'm still trying to see 70hrs of work time

ExploitedRacing-HR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legendboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm still trying to see 70hrs of work time </TD></TR></TABLE>

me too.

dfoxengr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by weirRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">design, programming, machine time, welding... </TD></TR></TABLE>

mostly design im sure good stuff

Justin Jones

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StrangerWitCandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Very cool, and nice workmanship... but why? i always thought it was a big acheivment when the world switched over from carbs to fuel injection </TD></TR></TABLE>

For a daily driver yes, electronic fuel injection is great but carbs are hard to beat for performance applications. The fuel atomization is dramatically better than most injectors, it doesn't hurt that carbs usually have more room before the intake valve to atomize.

Vanilla Sky

how much was that? i've been looking for an a20 manifold for myself for ages, and i never found one... i resigned to having to build my own...

and the webers can produce better power than our PGM-FI systems...

can you PM me with who bought that? i mean, if you nor the buyer would mind... maybe you can send the buyer my way?

legendboy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vanilla Sky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

and the webers can produce better power than our PGM-FI systems...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm seriously not tryin to hate on this thread but i'd like to you elaborate on this statement

dfoxengr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by the kid 86 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

For a daily driver yes, electronic fuel injection is great but carbs are hard to beat for performance applications. The fuel atomization is dramatically better than most injectors, it doesn't hurt that carbs usually have more room before the intake valve to atomize.</TD></TR></TABLE>

end quote

civdx94

Remember a carburetor is an atomization/emulsion machine. An injection system is a proper air to fuel delivery ratio machine. Two different concepts. If a carburetor can be designed to supply the perfect air to fuel ratio all the time it should consistently outperform EFI. Its design lends itself to have an unfair advantage in atomization.
Obviously adiabatic expansion is the next question on the list. So if we take a good look at the carburetor we see its not only a perfect machine for atomizing fuel, it also has another advantage. The joule-thompson effect.

Tests performed using quartz plates and infra red sensors located in the plenum area beneath an NHRA Pro-Stock engine revealed an intake manifold temperature drop on a 85 degree day of almost 20 degrees as a result of the the carburetor creating this effect.

So when your neighbor with EFI is ingesting 85 degree air, your power-plant could be ingesting 65 degree air.

courtesy of an old south carolina hondas thread

do some research, the information is there, BISI has been saying it for a while now
personally i wouldn t have wasted my time or money with such a crappy head design, but whatever you like i guess

legendboy

hmm i highly doubt a carburator can deliver the ideal af mix at all different rpm and load conditions. Efi can.......

Ash J. Williams

what experience do you have with both the EFI and a carb system?
stan

Vanilla Sky

well, i'm not sure about the newer systems, but our PGM-FI system sucks pretty bad... our carb system is even worse, but DCOE is a much better carb...

on my daily driver, i'll be going PGM-FI, but if i get a car i can build as a racecar, it'll be DCOE

weiRtech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vanilla Sky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much was that? i've been looking for an a20 manifold for myself for ages, and i never found one... i resigned to having to build my own...

and the webers can produce better power than our PGM-FI systems...

can you PM me with who bought that? i mean, if you nor the buyer would mind... maybe you can send the buyer my way?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i don't think he'll want to part with one of them. i can make you one if you like. let me know, hit me up with an email: aaronweir@cogeco.ca

Vanilla Sky

i just wanna talk with him/her about the weber setup, not to try to convince them to part with one of those manifolds...

about how much would it cost form you?

phatrick2332

The carb setup is far superior in a race application, it can be tuned for more bottom end power, or all out hauling *** up top. Problem is there really isnt much of an in between. EFI is better for fuel economy and a basic good power curve, but if you were to throw carbs on that same setup, it would make a good bit more power up high if thats the way you tuned it.

On my d16 NA car, i made 164 whp at 8500 rpms through a ported and bored intake/tb. Same exact engine with dual webers made over 22hp more at just over 8600 rpms. Thats a 12% gain for a rather low cost compared to upgrading intake and throttle body.

ManBearPig4silly

the fuel injection on 84-87 preludes and 86-89 accords sucks. it just really sucks that bad.

Vanilla Sky

while it does suck pretty bad, i now of a couple people htat have swapped to OBD1 and had good gains (one claimed like 12 WHP), and the ability to chip the ECU...

if my car was already EFI, i would have a hard time going DCOE, but if i was carbed, i'd just have to weigh my options... on my current car, i'm going EFI even though i have the DCOEs sitting right here... i need the ability to just hop in, crank up, and go whenever i need to... i'll probably be getting another one of these cars here pretty soon, and it'll most likely be DCOE'd...

ManBearPig4silly

&lt;--3geez member. Yeah I read all those threads a while back. If I'm going to be wiring to obd1 anyways I might as well swap in a b18. screw the A series. been there done that and realized sean was never gonna actually get the parts i needed produced.

weiRtech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vanilla Sky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just wanna talk with him/her about the weber setup, not to try to convince them to part with one of those manifolds...

about how much would it cost form you?</TD></TR></TABLE>

his email address is available on hmt. his user name is: 2old_honda just look him up, i'm pretty sure his email is available when you view his profile. i don't really like to hand out customer's emails without asking them first.

i could make you one for $250US. you would have to send me a gasket for the intake manifold though.

legendboy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stan D &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what experience do you have with both the EFI and a carb system?
stan</TD></TR></TABLE>

sorry, i was making a general comment. I was not thinking about this specific application. I was thinking of programable efi systems in general. Like an aem ems, autotronic, sds, chipped obd1 ecu compaired to carbs.....

Tiferet

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StrangerWitCandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Very cool, and nice workmanship... but why? i always thought it was a big acheivment when the world switched over from carbs to fuel injection </TD></TR></TABLE>

Carburetor &gt; Fuel injection at WOT

Vanilla Sky

i know 2oldhonda from 3geez...

2old_honda

Hey those look familiar! I cant wait to get one on the car.

As for why I am using the DCOE's:
1. cost- I got a good deal on the carbs.
2. I could have converted to the LXi EFI system but its a ton of work for almost zero gain. The system was designed in the early 80's and its very primitive.
3. They are unique. How many people do you know with DCOE powered accords?
4. adjustability/tunability- I dont have to pay anyone to "program" my car. everything is done with the turn of a screwdriver and a syncrometer.
5. (ricer moment) sound- DCOE's are basically carburated ITB's, and nothing else sounds like ITB's
6. Sure I could have swapped in a B series but where's the fun in that? Doing the exact same thing as every other honda guy does not appeal to me. Plus honda engine prices are ******* insane, $3k for a ragged out b18c1 +500ish for a mount kit? F- that, I could buy a nearly new LS1/T56 to throw in my RX7 for that price, plus I would be faster than 90% of honda hybrids to boot. If I was to do any kind of swap on this car it would be a 4G63T, I wont get into that though, thats a whole different discussion.

90DALS

My company solely gets its flanges from Weir Racing. He produces some good ****, and has some amazing things.




Stephen.