RyanEJ8

My tuner and I got together last Sunday afternoon and started tuning my setup. We started out tuning at the stock wastegate spring which is .5 bar. Approx 7-8 psi is what I was reading on my Greddy Profec B Spec II. Power was real nice, enough to break the tires loose at the top of second gear.

We then worked our way up to 15psi. After making a couple of hard second-third gear pulls we made some adjustments cleaning up the A/F ratio. Then made another third gear pull and cut it off at the top of third gear, coasted to a stop and checked the plugs. Everything looked good. Then when we started back up I noticed it was overheating just a little bit. Checked under the hood, everything seemed normal. We made a jumper to keep the radiator fan on all the time and waited for it to cool down some. After it cooled down we made one more good pull and didn't experience any overheating. We decided we were happy with the street tune for now and decided to call it a day. We were planning on finishing up the tune at the dyno within a couple weeks.

I boosted a little on the way home, but this time I started overheating some again. When I got home I popped the hood and found that I had pushed coolant out of the overflow. First thing that came to my head......."mutherf'er I blew another headgasket." However there wasn't any oil in the coolant or vice versa, and no bubbles in the radiator when running the car with the cap off.

I was reading a post from Howard at AR Fab awhile back. He mentioned having problems pushing coolant at 24psi on his D16. He didn't change the headgasket, just simply backed the timing off a few degrees and no more problems. I was at 17.5 deg total timing on 15psi, pump gas.

Yesterday we did a leakdown test.
CYL #4 - 4%
CYL #3 - 5%
CYL #2 - 5%
CYL #1 - 5%

Then we pulled the timing back to 16deg at 15psi to see if it would solve my problems like it did for AR Fab. This time no overheating, but I still pushed coolant out of the reservoir. Should I attempt to pull the timing back some more? If the headgasket were blown would it show up on the leakdown test?

JDMCRX

iTrader: (2)

Welcome to a D series man usauly the number 1cyl pops

beerbongskickass

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMCRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Welcome to a D series man usauly the number 1cyl pops</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would like to see better replies than this. How about having all the smart engine builders reply?

I want to know for sure what the problem is and how to fix it before I build my motor so I don't have to keep replacing headgaskets tryng to figure it out on my own what timing my car likes if that is the problem.

RyanEJ8

Little bit more info on the setup:

D16Y8 Block
SRP Pistons .020 overbore (~10:1 C/R)
Eagle Rods with ARP bolts
ACL Bearings

D16Y8 Head
Zex Stage II cam
Zex Valve Springs
ARP head studs torqued to 70 ft lbs with 10w-30 motor oil

Turbo is an SC50 with .48 A/R
Hondata S200
Greddy Profec B Spec II EBC
RC Injectors 750cc
SVE 3bar MAP sensor

b16sedan

I think it popped because you're running high compression and a turbo.

I just had to say that If the headgasket were REALLY blown you would be seeing more than 5% leakdown, but to see 5% across the board on a new motor like that is just weird. I have about 8000 miles on my low compression b16 and it pulls a percent or under in every cylinder. Warped head or deck, perhaps? A head that's warped just enough to let combuston gasses enter the cooling system, but when it cools off it seats tight enough to give you decent seal? I had a weird problem like this too, only in my case the Tstat was partially blocked, and it was overheating and blowing coolant out of the overflow just because there wasn't enough coolant flow when pushing the motor hard to keep everything cool.

My 2 cents, good luck with your problem.

redzcstandardhatch

10:1 isnt really that high of compression. thats similar to a stock d series.

was the head or block milled before assembly? stock headgasket? maybe you should re-torque the headstuds. i know honda guys dont usually do it, but who knows. just a suggestion.

YiNYaNg

There was a old thread saying stuff about SOHC VTEC sleeves seems to twist or something and cause coolant to be pushed out...and a few guys that had the same problem pulled there heads off to check the head gasket and it was fine, but still had coolant over flow...

boosted hybrid

Do the leakdown test with the radiator cap off. During each leakdown for each individual cylinder, watch the coolant in the radiator. If it bubbles, you blew the headgasket in that particular cylinder.

With turbo d-series engines i have found that the cylinder head likes to lift, more so than blowing headgaskets. If coolant is being pushed out of the resevior, you are pressurizing the coolant jackets. If you are getting overheating while you are finding coolant being pushed out of the overflow, the cylinder head is lifting. A leakdown test will confirm if the gasket is blown or not. If its not, your head is lifting. I torque the arp headstuds down in sequence from 22 ft-lbs, 55 ft-lbs and 85 ft-lbs on d-series with SAE 30wt motor oil. From the d-series blocks that i have built and tuned for customers, none have had head lifting issues at all. The torsional stiffness of the d-series block isnt as high as the b-series, they twist torsionally and the cylinder head likes to lift on opposing corners typically.

redzcstandardhatch

top notch advice man.


you always torque to 85 lbsft?

i only torqued my arp's to 65.....you've had no problems with that high of torque though?

boosted hybrid

If you are using moly based lubricant, that would be equivalent to 75 ft-lbs to my 85 ft-lbs with motor oil.

With the head studs, once you go above 65 ft-lbs you are going beyond the yield strength of the stud. This means that any ductile stretch that the stud had, i.e stretching and returning to normal length, is gone. You have went above the ductile point, and entered permanent deformation region. You get higher clamping force with the higher torque/longer stretch on the stud, but the price you pay is that you cannot reuse the headstuds again.

96-EJ6 B18C

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you are using moly based lubricant, that would be equivalent to 75 ft-lbs to my 85 ft-lbs with motor oil.

With the head studs, once you go above 65 ft-lbs you are going beyond the yield strength of the stud. This means that any ductile stretch that the stud had, i.e stretching and returning to normal length, is gone. You have went above the ductile point, and entered permanent deformation region. You get higher clamping force with the higher torque/longer stretch on the stud, but the price you pay is that you cannot reuse the headstuds again. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Good stuff, do you have any wirte-ups or links with more info? --thanks

JDMCRX

iTrader: (2)

Relaxe guys me and RYAN have already talked about it.

ELSPOOL makes 300whp on stock sleeves and he has not popped this head gasket.

Here is the process we did.

First take the head off clean all surfaces by hand not grinders or wirly birds. Take a straight edge check the deck for straightness.Next check the head and if its warped get it plained. now clean both the block and head with brake kleen.

Now make sure the threads that go into the block are dry and clean and clean the arp's. Thread them in by hand tell they stop then use a allen key to tighten them in no too tight but snug. Then slapp the new head gasket on then the head then make sure the head sits flush and take some of ur molly crap put it on the threads then put ur wahers on then put a bit more on the top of the waher. The take ur nuts put some moly lube in the denter work it in the threads and using a socket and extention put them on snug.

We first torqued them to 5 ft lbs then 10,20,30,40,50,60,65 and then 70 if u want to go to 75 its up to u i went to 70 on mine. then put the enigne back together run it bleed the air bubbles out take the car for a drive and NO BOOST drive it like ur grandma would slow and for the next few days no boost let it go threw a few hot cold cycles and then this should work.

ELSPOOL beats that motor and he daily drives it every were 16-18psi all day long never pshes coolant.

racinskittle

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96-EJ6 B18C &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good stuff, do you have any wirte-ups or links with more info? --thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup the write up is in the post above. It's pretty straight forward

JDMCRX

iTrader: (2)

I think its the head if u look inside the coolant jackets of the head vs a B series the d series is not very thick. Just look at the heat its like 3" high lol b is like 6" lol

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

Yea, that was pretty straight forward explanation. It is kinda like hooks law with a spring, once you pass a certain point it will never be the same. ( Not a perfect relationship, but it came to mind.)

RyanEJ8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do the leakdown test with the radiator cap off. During each leakdown for each individual cylinder, watch the coolant in the radiator. If it bubbles, you blew the headgasket in that particular cylinder.

With turbo d-series engines i have found that the cylinder head likes to lift, more so than blowing headgaskets. If coolant is being pushed out of the resevior, you are pressurizing the coolant jackets. If you are getting overheating while you are finding coolant being pushed out of the overflow, the cylinder head is lifting. A leakdown test will confirm if the gasket is blown or not. If its not, your head is lifting. I torque the arp headstuds down in sequence from 22 ft-lbs, 55 ft-lbs and 85 ft-lbs on d-series with SAE 30wt motor oil. From the d-series blocks that i have built and tuned for customers, none have had head lifting issues at all. The torsional stiffness of the d-series block isnt as high as the b-series, they twist torsionally and the cylinder head likes to lift on opposing corners typically. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Jeff, very helpful as usual.

The leakdown tester was a Snap-On unit I borrowed from a friend and it isn't readily available to me. If I were to take the fitting from my compression tester and used that to compress air into each cylinder and just look for bubbles in the radiator would this work the same? Also, my head studs are torqued to 70 ft lbs with 10w-30 motor oil, would it be worth a shot of just re-tightening them down to 85 ft lbs without taking the head off?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16sedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it popped because you're running high compression and a turbo.
I just had to say that If the headgasket were REALLY blown you would be seeing more than 5% leakdown, but to see 5% across the board on a new motor like that is just weird. I have about 8000 miles on my low compression b16 and it pulls a percent or under in every cylinder. Warped head or deck, perhaps? A head that's warped just enough to let combuston gasses enter the cooling system, but when it cools off it seats tight enough to give you decent seal? I had a weird problem like this too, only in my case the Tstat was partially blocked, and it was overheating and blowing coolant out of the overflow just because there wasn't enough coolant flow when pushing the motor hard to keep everything cool.

My 2 cents, good luck with your problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The motor is actually about 1 yr and 10,000 miles old, so it's not brand new. Just never boosted until now. The 10:1 C/R is working quite well for me. No detonation, 15psi and pump 93 octane.


Modified by RyanCivic2000 at 10:29 PM 2/3/2005

boosted hybrid

Pressurizing the cylinder with at least 90-100psi will do the trick. I always use my leakdown tester, but its essentially the same thing.

You can retorque the studs down with the head on. I remember giving the suggestion about going to 80-85 ft-lbs on Elspool's engine, and i believe that he had the head off and replaced the headgasket though. It solved his blowing headgasket issues that he had.

igo4bmx

just an FYI, but i believe AR fab and turbo cx both said the car was pushing a total of 12 degrees of timing...

also ryan i believe you are using a blockguard right?
so i would assume your sleeves aren't shifting as much as a non blockguarded d series...
so as jeff said, it sounds like the head is definately lifting

eddyboy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by igo4bmx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just an FYI, but i believe AR fab and turbo cx both said the car was pushing a total of 12 degrees of timing...

also ryan i believe you are using a blockguard right?
so i would assume your sleeves aren't shifting as much as a non blockguarded d series...
so as jeff said, it sounds like the head is definately lifting</TD></TR></TABLE>

I remeber that too. He does run alot of boost though. Would 12 degrees of total timing be recommended for 15psi? I have read that small bore long stroke motors need less timing cause of the high cylinder pressures. (don't quote me on that, just somthing i've read on HT) Is that statement true? And what would be the recommended total timing for our D series motors at say 15psi.

Hope you figure it out

JDMCRX

iTrader: (2)

Hell lol i ran 16 lol

Tiferet

where is Zex man when you need him?

Flr Power

I use 11 to be safe.

YiNYaNg

From the factory how many lbs ft of torque is the head bolts tighten too?
And how much lbs ft of torque can I retighten my stock head bolts without breaking them?

ComputerJLT

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by redzcstandardhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">top notch advice man.


you always torque to 85 lbsft?

i only torqued my arp's to 65.....you've had no problems with that high of torque though? </TD></TR></TABLE>

i typically have done 75-85; i've retorqued my studs 4 times so far and no abnormal stretch

W O T