A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C
12-23-2004, 01:32 PM
#4
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (SMSP)
Okay, I'll bite with a wild *** guess.
It is a distribution block for the brake lines. Route the two lines out of the the MC into the end holes and each front line out of a side hole with the third side hole leading to an in-line adjustable brake prop. valve before "Y"-ing out to each rear brake? My concern is that if you lose any hydraulic lines in the system then the whole thing goes open unless there is a check ball system in the distribution block. Pressure is even and shared but there is no maintaining of the two seperate systems I think.
Was I even close? I have never done anything but stock brake routing but I need to and have yet to figure it out and actually plumb it up. When someone has a foolproof system that a fool can understand, install, and use then I'm fool enough to try it.
It is a distribution block for the brake lines. Route the two lines out of the the MC into the end holes and each front line out of a side hole with the third side hole leading to an in-line adjustable brake prop. valve before "Y"-ing out to each rear brake? My concern is that if you lose any hydraulic lines in the system then the whole thing goes open unless there is a check ball system in the distribution block. Pressure is even and shared but there is no maintaining of the two seperate systems I think.
Was I even close? I have never done anything but stock brake routing but I need to and have yet to figure it out and actually plumb it up. When someone has a foolproof system that a fool can understand, install, and use then I'm fool enough to try it.
12-23-2004, 02:04 PM
#5
Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (CRX Lee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay, I'll bite with a wild *** guess.
It is a distribution block for the brake lines. Route the two lines out of the the MC into the end holes and each front line out of a side hole with the third side hole leading to an in-line adjustable brake prop. valve before "Y"-ing out to each rear brake? My concern is that if you lose any hydraulic lines in the system then the whole thing goes open unless there is a check ball system in the distribution block. Pressure is even and shared but there is no maintaining of the two seperate systems I think.
Was I even close? I have never done anything but stock brake routing but I need to and have yet to figure it out and actually plumb it up. When someone has a foolproof system that a fool can understand, install, and use then I'm fool enough to try it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My guess would be similar, but I'd guess that the 3rd line goes to a pressure relief valve (and not an adjustment ****) that limits the maximum pressure the [rear] brake lines will see....so the relation would be 1:1 between front and rear line pressures till a set point and then the rear line pressure would stay constant with increase in front line pressure...
i dunno if that'd be a good idea though.
It is a distribution block for the brake lines. Route the two lines out of the the MC into the end holes and each front line out of a side hole with the third side hole leading to an in-line adjustable brake prop. valve before "Y"-ing out to each rear brake? My concern is that if you lose any hydraulic lines in the system then the whole thing goes open unless there is a check ball system in the distribution block. Pressure is even and shared but there is no maintaining of the two seperate systems I think.
Was I even close? I have never done anything but stock brake routing but I need to and have yet to figure it out and actually plumb it up. When someone has a foolproof system that a fool can understand, install, and use then I'm fool enough to try it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My guess would be similar, but I'd guess that the 3rd line goes to a pressure relief valve (and not an adjustment ****) that limits the maximum pressure the [rear] brake lines will see....so the relation would be 1:1 between front and rear line pressures till a set point and then the rear line pressure would stay constant with increase in front line pressure...
i dunno if that'd be a good idea though.
12-23-2004, 02:16 PM
#6
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (CRX Lee)
You couldn't have a common manifold serve both front and rear circuits - the prop valve would effect pressure for the whole system netting no bias change.
Scott, who guesses it's just a distribution block to make nice with the plumbing. The two circuits are isolated. Making Dave a shady puzzle-meister.
Scott, who guesses it's just a distribution block to make nice with the plumbing. The two circuits are isolated. Making Dave a shady puzzle-meister.
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12-23-2004, 02:21 PM
#8
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You couldn't have a common manifold serve both front and rear circuits - the prop valve would effect pressure for the whole system netting no bias change.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If the prop valve is downstream of the block but upstream of the Y to the rear lines only then it would work. Fronts would each feed off the full block pressure and the rear would go through the valve. This would make it tidy to run a single line into the passenger compartment for prop valve then aft to the rear brakes.
If the prop valve is downstream of the block but upstream of the Y to the rear lines only then it would work. Fronts would each feed off the full block pressure and the rear would go through the valve. This would make it tidy to run a single line into the passenger compartment for prop valve then aft to the rear brakes.
12-23-2004, 02:25 PM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (El Pollo Diablo)
Depending on how Dave wanted to run his pipes and hoses:
The two ends are drilled to the depth required to serve one and two holes respectively. One for the rear circuit and two for the front. The rear circuit runs to the prop valve and then back to a T split to the wheels. One port each for the fronts.
He's doing this with a single part just because he thinks its sano.
Scott, who's just guessing of course, and waits for Dave to reveal all...well, not ALL...
The two ends are drilled to the depth required to serve one and two holes respectively. One for the rear circuit and two for the front. The rear circuit runs to the prop valve and then back to a T split to the wheels. One port each for the fronts.
He's doing this with a single part just because he thinks its sano.
Scott, who's just guessing of course, and waits for Dave to reveal all...well, not ALL...
12-23-2004, 06:25 PM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (CRX Lee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If the prop valve is downstream of the block but upstream of the Y to the rear lines only then it would work. Fronts would each feed off the full block pressure and the rear would go through the valve. This would make it tidy to run a single line into the passenger compartment for prop valve then aft to the rear brakes.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I and Corey are doing it like Lee stated.
The 2 lines from the M/C will come in on the ends to feed the dist block. The ports at the ends will feed each front brake and the middle port will run to the back with a prop valve next to the driver and then will split off to the rears.
If one was to just run from one M/C port to the fronts and the other through a prop valve and split to the rear you would have the added problem of controling the volume since the pistons inside the M/C both displace the same amount of brake fluid and the prop valve can't do both jobs.
If you see me going deeper into the turns then the next guy, without rear lock up, then you'll know it works.
BTW, this is the rest of the system.
If the prop valve is downstream of the block but upstream of the Y to the rear lines only then it would work. Fronts would each feed off the full block pressure and the rear would go through the valve. This would make it tidy to run a single line into the passenger compartment for prop valve then aft to the rear brakes.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I and Corey are doing it like Lee stated.
The 2 lines from the M/C will come in on the ends to feed the dist block. The ports at the ends will feed each front brake and the middle port will run to the back with a prop valve next to the driver and then will split off to the rears.
If one was to just run from one M/C port to the fronts and the other through a prop valve and split to the rear you would have the added problem of controling the volume since the pistons inside the M/C both displace the same amount of brake fluid and the prop valve can't do both jobs.
If you see me going deeper into the turns then the next guy, without rear lock up, then you'll know it works.
BTW, this is the rest of the system.
12-23-2004, 06:44 PM
#14
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (SMSP)
So do I win anything for guessing... like a friendly price on on one? Looks nice and tidy. Are you making any for sale? Are you making new hardlines to come to or from it, using braided lines or making use of the stock lines.
What will the car be like without the power brake booster, other than a stiffer pedal? I have wondered about eliminating mine or if it was worth the effort bascially for weight reduction alone.
What will the car be like without the power brake booster, other than a stiffer pedal? I have wondered about eliminating mine or if it was worth the effort bascially for weight reduction alone.
12-23-2004, 06:56 PM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (CRX Lee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So do I win anything for guessing... like a friendly price on on one? Looks nice and tidy. Are you making any for sale? Are you making new hardlines to come to or from it, using braided lines or making use of the stock lines.
What will the car be like without the power brake booster, other than a stiffer pedal? I have wondered about eliminating mine or if it was worth the effort bascially for weight reduction alone.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I had 4 made this time around. If it's something that people want I'll get more. BUt I'll add some mounting holes and probably cut down the overall size. They aren't expensive and if they do what I think they will it will be the best money spent on your brakes.
The car will have all new lines and the standard sst teflon pieces. The clutch will also be new line with sst teflon flex.
The brake will be stiffer but it becomes it's own ABS. I think they are much easier to modulate. I did this back in 91 with my Solo II car in EP to make more room for the dual carbs, some joked about it, then many did it. What most people don't realize is all the flex that is in the system that they are buying those JDM M/C brackets for is coming from the flexing of the booster housing.
What will the car be like without the power brake booster, other than a stiffer pedal? I have wondered about eliminating mine or if it was worth the effort bascially for weight reduction alone.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I had 4 made this time around. If it's something that people want I'll get more. BUt I'll add some mounting holes and probably cut down the overall size. They aren't expensive and if they do what I think they will it will be the best money spent on your brakes.
The car will have all new lines and the standard sst teflon pieces. The clutch will also be new line with sst teflon flex.
The brake will be stiffer but it becomes it's own ABS. I think they are much easier to modulate. I did this back in 91 with my Solo II car in EP to make more room for the dual carbs, some joked about it, then many did it. What most people don't realize is all the flex that is in the system that they are buying those JDM M/C brackets for is coming from the flexing of the booster housing.
12-23-2004, 07:32 PM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (SMSP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The brake will be stiffer but it becomes it's own ABS. I think they are much easier to modulate. </TD></TR></TABLE>
How so Dave? Better feel/feedback to the driver?
Victor Penner
The brake will be stiffer but it becomes it's own ABS. I think they are much easier to modulate. </TD></TR></TABLE>
How so Dave? Better feel/feedback to the driver?
Victor Penner
12-23-2004, 07:37 PM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (Victor Penner)
You have to push harder to achieve max pressure since there's no help from the booster. So the window from low pressure to max pressure is much wider so it's like having more data points to pick from since the multiplier is gone. Feel is better since you're directly connected to the M/C.
12-23-2004, 07:45 PM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (SMSP)
What is the multiplier/mechanical advantage with the booster? What is the increase in pedal effort?
Thanks
Victor Penner
Thanks
Victor Penner
12-23-2004, 08:51 PM
#21
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (Garrett)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Garrett »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NO booster 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't tell you how many older people who learned to drive in cars with no boosters have told me they wish they still made cars without them. My high school auto shop teacher is the first one who said this to me.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I can't tell you how many older people who learned to drive in cars with no boosters have told me they wish they still made cars without them. My high school auto shop teacher is the first one who said this to me.
12-24-2004, 01:06 AM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 
looking good dave, keep the pics coming! 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
looking good dave, keep the pics coming! </TD></TR></TABLE>
12-24-2004, 04:05 AM
#23
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (Victor Penner)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Victor Penner »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the multiplier/mechanical advantage with the booster? What is the increase in pedal effort?
Thanks
Victor Penner</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't know, don't care. To me the added feel is well worth it. You also save a couple pounds, clean up the engine bay and you don't want to be pushing on the brakes with a failed booster plus the fact that you'd then have a vacuum leak.
Thanks
Victor Penner</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't know, don't care. To me the added feel is well worth it. You also save a couple pounds, clean up the engine bay and you don't want to be pushing on the brakes with a failed booster plus the fact that you'd then have a vacuum leak.
12-24-2004, 06:21 AM
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Re: A part to fix all brake bias problems when using a stock M/C (SMSP)
Wow...this sounds like the answer to my booster leak problem.
Modified by B18C5 EH at 7:35 AM 12/24/2004
Modified by B18C5 EH at 7:35 AM 12/24/2004
12-24-2004, 06:47 AM
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I'm a wimp
88 Std. Hatch. Rear disc conversion. FastBrakes NDL Wilwood Front kit.
Stock prop valve, booster/MC, etc etc.
Felt like pushing down on thick concrete. I could never move enough
brake fluid to make the brakes work quickly enough
Can't imagine what it would be like with no booster!
I guess it comes down to leg strength, if your leg is your booster
you'd probably enjoy it.
But what weighs more? A booster or a bigger leg?
Stock prop valve, booster/MC, etc etc.
Felt like pushing down on thick concrete. I could never move enough
brake fluid to make the brakes work quickly enough
Can't imagine what it would be like with no booster!
I guess it comes down to leg strength, if your leg is your booster
you'd probably enjoy it.
But what weighs more? A booster or a bigger leg?