mikestypeRR

hey guys I have owned an R for a little more than a year now, and I love the car and want to start doing some HPDE's.

Now when it comes to these events most or at least the ones down here, u need to know how to heel toe to eventually get signed off.

Well the problem I am running into when I try to do this, is when i am entering a corner, I start to break when i lift my heel off the ground to spike the gas pedal, I have alot of trouble actually hitting the gas pedal, i think it might be a mental thing cause i seem to keep taking my foot off the break, when i have trouble hitting the gas pedal and making it a smooth process... the car just feels like i am doing it wrong and i am throughing the balance off.. could it be i am practicing on the street and my speeds are not high enough, thus making it harder to learn? by the way i wear a size 13 shoe "could i have too big of a foot?"


when i think about it .. when your on a track entering a corner at 90-120mph, when you break you are pretty much mashing the break really far down... does that factor alone make it easier to make a smooth heel toe move with out upsetting the car.I am thinking because i am practicing at speeds of 30-50 that this is not enough speed to make me have to pound the breaks. i dont know i just need all the input you guys can give me.

so i want to know if you guys have any similar problems when you were learning, and how long it took you to learn. and if you have any tips or techniques i would appreciate it... becaues i dont want to go to a track event not knowing what i need to know.

Thanks in advance

Mike.

Erik95LS

Practice is the best thing you can do. I also have big feet (13) and I actually do it by braking with the left portion of my foot on the right edge of the brake pedal and blip the throttle with the right edge of my foot. No awkward leg movements and its very precise and effective. Thats what works best for me anyway. If you're having alot of trouble you may want to consider some new pedals to make it a bit easier.

But just keep practicing and sooner or late you'll get it.

thk

1.) Don't practice heel toe on track if you don't know how to do it well. You have enough things to worry about.
2.) You lift you heel off the floor and then go for the throttle? Try braking with just your toes/ball of foot and don't let your heel touch the floor.
3.) Do practice on the street. Every time. You don't need to be going fast to get accustomed to heel toe downshifting. You just need to feel comfortable with doing it.

mikestypeRR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik95LS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Practice is the best thing you can do. I also have big feet (13) and I actually do it by braking with the left portion of my foot on the right edge of the brake pedal and blip the throttle with the right edge of my foot. No awkward leg movements and its very precise and effective. Thats what works best for me anyway. If you're having alot of trouble you may want to consider some new pedals to make it a bit easier.

But just keep practicing and sooner or late you'll get it.</TD></TR></TABLE>


yeah i noticed that once in a while if i do it just how you described it, will work.. ive seen lots of people make that akward foot movment .. but maybe thats cause there foot was smaller in size?&gt;

mikestypeRR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1.) Don't practice heel toe on track if you don't know how to do it well. You have enough things to worry about.
2.) You lift you heel off the floor and then go for the throttle? Try braking with just your toes/ball of foot and don't let your heel touch the floor.
3.) Do practice on the street. Every time. You don't need to be going fast to get accustomed to heel toe downshifting. You just need to feel comfortable with doing it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i kinda see what your saying.. by getting used to breaking without the heel on the ground... that will let me get comfy with it then all i need to do is blip the gas.

Erik95LS

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikestypeRR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


yeah i noticed that once in a while if i do it just how you described it, will work.. ive seen lots of people make that akward foot movment .. but maybe thats cause there foot was smaller in size?&gt;</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its a bit tough with the stock pedals, but can be done. I tried the "traditional" (awkward ) method and just didn't find it to be very effective, at least not how I was doing it. I just find it easier this way and it lends so much more control over both pedals and it very very quickly become second nature.

hampton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik95LS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I actually do it by braking with the left portion of my foot on the right edge of the brake pedal and blip the throttle with the right edge of my foot.</TD></TR></TABLE>

#1151

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik95LS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Practice is the best thing you can do. I also have big feet (13) and I actually do it by braking with the left portion of my foot on the right edge of the brake pedal and blip the throttle with the right edge of my foot. No awkward leg movements and its very precise and effective. Thats what works best for me anyway. If you're having alot of trouble you may want to consider some new pedals to make it a bit easier.

But just keep practicing and sooner or late you'll get it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats how i do it...just use the sides on my feet....i learned how to do it at high speeds. sounds pretty sick too

mikestypeRR

yeah its just tough becuase i want to learn, and when i try to practice

1)its hard to find somewere to practice
2)its not smoothe so i feel i am ******* the car up.

but i will take the advice of learning to break w/o my heel on the floor and i guess go back to using the edge of my right foot instead of the "awkward movment"

HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU GUYS TO LEARN? on average.

thk

Honestly? It probably took about a year of constant practice to get it down to acceptable (to me) smoothness. But ... keep in mind I only drove my Hype R approximately 7000 miles a year.

And I practiced every time getting on the off ramp from the highway (50-60mph and just practice blipping from 5-4-3). I practiced when slowing down from 30 to a stop w/3-2-1. *shrug*

There are plenty of places to practice and plenty of opportunities to practice even on a daily commute.

mikestypeRR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honestly? It probably took about a year of constant practice to get it down to acceptable (to me) smoothness. But ... keep in mind I only drove my Hype R approximately 7000 miles a year.</TD></TR></TABLE>

k cool.. so that should be a couple months for me.

by the way, so you guys think that i def. should NOT drive an event until i have mastered this correct?

thats what i was thinking, i want to know the basics so i can concintrate on learning HOW TO DRIVE rather than worrying about heel toeing.

Erik95LS

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikestypeRR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU GUYS TO LEARN? on average.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It took me a few weeks of very hard practicing everytime I went anywhere. And I drive a whole lot every day. I still do it everytime I downshift and every single time I can feel myself getting better at it. Practice makes perfect.

I wouldn't say you couldn't drive an event, but I'd say don't try it in traffic at high speeds at an event until you're pretty comfortable and consistant with your abilities to do it.

OT after nearly 4 years on here I finally reach 1000 posts

thk

I edited my previous post to expand on my response. But if you want to attend a driving event before you get comfortable with heel and toe, feel free. I mean, you're going to practice now and you're going to need to feel for yourself how to do it smoothly at speed compared to normal every day driving.

If you mess up in a session, just forget about heel toe and work the line the next session. The session afterwards, try again. See if you improved.

It's all about practice.

Utilitarian

Not to jack the thread, but when you guys double clutch, how far do you let the clutch out to get the layshaft revving. Would letting it out 1/2 way put any additional wear on the clutch?

toEknEEg

practice rev matching first. once you got that concept down pat, you will get heeltoe in no time. gimme a call bro... i can demonstrate for you if you'de like.

thk

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Utilitarian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to jack the thread, but when you guys double clutch, how far do you let the clutch out to get the layshaft revving. Would letting it out 1/2 way put any additional wear on the clutch?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Never bothered double clutching in a modern day, manual transmission car. I guess this is before my time.

Erik95LS

As thk said, with a modern synchromesh transmission theres really no need to double clutch.

Back in Black

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikestypeRR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now when it comes to these events most or at least the ones down here, u need to know how to heel toe to eventually get signed off.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just out of curiosity, did they mention why?

Don't get me wrong as I think it's definitely the way to go (I do it myself), but I know a bunch of drivers that are quite good that don't practice any form of heel-toe.

ITR184

What is heel toe? Down shifting without using the clutch?

Back in Black

It's the method of rev-matching/blipping the throttle while under braking to ease the stress on the transmission while downshifting.

GokuSSJ4

this topic was discuss on a different board and these was some of the responses that it receive:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not as hard as you might think, as long as you're already good with simple rev-matching (blipping the throttle to raise revs for the next lower gear as you press the clutch while coasting - not under braking). If not, then practice that first.

I found that heel/toe was easier to learn under semi-hard braking, since your "heel" (actually anywhere along the right side of your foot) and "toe" (the upper left portion of the ball of your foot) will be in a more natural position. It was just easier to jab the throttle that way for me at first, but that can vary from driver to driver. Try different positions to see what's comfortable for you. And you probably need to give it more gas than you think - really stab that gas pedal to get those revs up quickly. But practice in a safe, open, low-traffic area in a straight line - NOT mid-corner in the canyons! Not until you can do it smoothly every time. You don't want to over-rev and screw up your corner entry, or even worse, slip off the brake pedal in a threshold braking situation when approaching a hard left with ZERO runoff room. And Chris is right - watch some Option and Best Motoring vids for the footwork cam shots. Watch how they keep a constant pressure on the brake while moving to the gas. Good stuff. Practice, practice, practice.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I''ve found that keeping my ankle locked and moving my whole leg from the hip helps me maintain a constant high brake pressure while reving the throttle... (Now I'm working on left foot braking for when I put in the Quaif dogbox and sequential shifter)...and then I can forget about the clutch .</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Heal and Toe (Braking while Rev-matching) is much easier to learn if you understand its practical application. You can STOP(brake) AND GO (lower gear with higher torque) which becomes useful in turns and cornering when you have to decrease speed and quickly accelerate again. Always heal and toe before a turn to reduce the weight tranfer to the front of the car while also being able to accelerate into the turns to gain more exit speed.

Step by Step.

1. Begin braking, using the ball of your right foot on the brake pedal while keeping a small protion of the right side of your foot covering the gas pedal-but not yet pushing.

2. Depress the clutch pedal with your left foot, while maintaining braking.

3. Move the shifter into the next-lower gear, while maintaining braking.

4. While continuing braking and with the clutch pedal depressed, pivot or roll your right foot at the ankle, quickly pushing or "blipping" the trottle.

5. Quickly ease out the clutch, while maintaing braking.

If you take out the braking in each step, the whole process becomes a simple rev-match. Learn how to rev-match from gear to gear (3rd to 2nd, 4th to 3rd, 5th to 4th, 5th to 3rd, and 4th to 2nd), and get a feel of the amount of blimping required for each downshift at a given speed. If you add braking while rev-matching, it becomes a Heal and Toe.

The problem lies in the fact that the evo pedals may make it difficult for the pivot from brake to trottle. You should get pedals that closer and bigger to make the learning process smoother and safer. It's easy to miss the blimp to the trottle or have your foot come off the brakes (Yikes).</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow, cool topic! Well, there are some tools out there who think that heel-toe downshifting is a natural thin

GokuSSJ4

EXERCISE WITH BRAKING:

With the car off, try to find a seating and foot position that allows you to operate the brake and the gas pedal with your right foot at the same tirne using the ball and edge position I described. While pushing on the brake pedal, try to learn to blip the gas pedal without varying the pressure on the brake.

This inevitably will feel *very unnatural* at first.

In the course of your normal driving, practice blipping the gas pedal while you brake (don't try to downshift). Trying doing it during light braking and heavy braking. Try to bring the engine up to different speeds. The idea is just to get used to blipping the throttle while braking, without worrying about accomplishing anything with the engine. The goal is to not let the operation of the gas pedal affect the braking.

When you think you're ready, try braking and blipping the gas to rev match into a downshift.

The next step requires an open stretch of straight road without traffic.

Basically just brake from speed, to a rev match downshift at the *end* of the braking. Accelerate back up and repeat. Try it with and without double clutching. Try it with light braking and heavy braking.

All the usual goals apply: Smooth transitions. Light touch on the shift lever. Unified fluid shift motions.

Stop and go traffic is an excellent opportunity to practice this exercise. I know people that dislike driving a manual transmission during rush hour. Personally, I prefer a manual because it gives me something interesting to do with my driving in an otherwise tedious situation.

CORNER ENTRY EXERCISE:

Suspension loading might best be practiced first without downshifting. The exercise is only about getting into a corner. Just push in the clutch while braking and don't worry about the gas. Wait until the comer is completed before trying to downshift or speeding up again.

Brake as you approach a corner. Try to be conscious of the level of braking force that you feel. When you reach the point where you start to turn the steering wheel, lift off of the brake in unison with moving the steering wheel.

The goal is to feel the force swing sideways without varying in intensity. You shouldn't feel any gaps in the 'tug'. There also shouldn't be any pulses in the force. Keep it smooth and uniform.

Try varying how fast you turn in. The faster you turn in, the faster you need to get off the brakes. Doing comers with slow turn in is good for practice because it emphasizes the steering/braking coordination more.

FINALLY, THE WHOLE DEAL:

If you've gotten through all of the exercises up to this point, adding the final steps should be a relatively easy process.

Brake timing doesn't have to be an issue at first if you practice at reduced speeds with moderate deceleration. The main thing to focus on is to get the downshift timed so that it is *completed* just before you start to turn the steering wheel. As the clutch is re engaged, the gas should be held at the level where it will be during maximum cornering force.

Transition the braking into steering as in the previous exercise. When it's time to straighten out, transition into the gas in a similar manner. Just swing the direction of the force around without any gaps or surges.

Here's the entire step by step process for a 90degree corner from a 55NIPH road to another 55NWH road:

1) Begin braking. 2) Clutch pedal down, transmission lever in neutral. 3) Clutch up, blip throttle. 4) Clutch down, lever into second. 5) Clutch up, lightly apply the gas just enough to load the drivetrain. 6) Transition off of the brakes into the steering. 7) Hold the corner (maintain the gas just below where the back end would start to slip out. Transition out of the steering into full gas. 9) Shift up when needed.

FINAL NOTE:

The whole process of learning to shift well takes lots of practice and determination, but it's well worth the effort. Everyone that I know who's learned to do this really ENJOYS shifting. I believe all of them have a really strong preference for manual transmissions. I know that I do.

http://home.earthlink.net/ rponiarski/shifting.htm 8/20/99

(END QUOTE)

I use the "roll" method, but the same concepts apply. I pretty much don't downshift without double-clutching and rev-matching, with heel-toe used when braking. It helped me be much more comfortable on my first track day a couple weeks ago.

PredatorGSR

Here you go, detailed article on how to heel-toe, with pictures too.

http://www.edmunds.com/ownersh....html

For me it took a couple of months to be able to do it reliably. After about 2 months, during some hard driving, I finally did it perfectly and it was like a lightbulb went off. After that I could do it right about 80% of the time. Occasionally I still will mess up by reving too hard or not enough. But I can do it pretty reliably.

Best moment was when I was trying to show my friend the usefullness of it, so I was approaching a corner, and told him "watch, i'll downshift from 5-3". He said, "your going to blow your engine". I did a perfect heel-toe and the tach reved up to 7.5k without the car jerking at all, you couldn't even feel that I had shifted. All he had to say was "wow".

EDIT: heh, wow. thats a huge article, beat me to it. Click my article for pictures though.

Jon D

Im adding this to the FAQ

&lt;----Jon who certainly doesn't know how to "Heel Toe"

Mr.OB*GYN_Rhett

iTrader: (2)

^ HOLY ****!! thanks alot