** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread **
04-01-2007, 02:02 PM
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** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread **
I’ve been seeing a lot of questions going around lately about what spring/retainer/valve combo works with a given cam, idk if its just that time of year or what. It seems though that rather then sticking with the same manufacturer when buying valvetrain parts, people will opt for whatever is cheaper. A cam manufacturer is going to design their springs and retainers around the cams THEY sell, not someone elses. I do realize however that sometimes money is tight, or maybe you just found a killer deal, and if XX brand retainer/spring over here is a bit cheaper, people are going to want to mix and match with XX brand cam. That being said the point of this thread is to gather as much info about all aftermarket retainers and springs and how to measure important clearances when dealing with high lift camshafts as well as the complete stock valvetrain as basis for comparison. Hopefully the information contained in this thread will allow the end user to make his own educated decisions when purchasing valvetrain parts. Hopefully this will shed some light on the type-s clearance problems that some have had as well.
I don’t care to see posts like “my mom has XX brand retainers and XX brand springs and XX brand cams with no issues,” that means nothing. I want to know that a particular setup is going to work on paper FIRST, before finding out after its too late. If a company won’t tell you the specs and limits of their valvetrain then I suggest not buying from them. This also isn’t a thread to talk about what cam is better, if you want to talk about lift in reference to clearance with other valvetrain parts then please do so.
Things we should be looking for…
Spring seat pressure (closed valve pressure)
Spring coil bind
Spring pressure @ XX” of lift
Spring installed height
Retainer type offset vs. non offset
Retainer installed height
Retainer to valve stem seal clearance
The valvetrain I have in my possession is Skunk2, Crower w/+.06" installed height retainers, and stock usdm h22a1. If you would like to contribute any other info about other brands please post up, or PM me and I will include it in this first post.
DISCLAIMER: It is still YOUR responsibility to verify anything discussed here when building your own motor. I didn’t build your engine, therefore I didn’t blow it up. These measurements were all taken off a cutaway 1996 h22a1 head, stock valves, valve seats, retainers, and springs.
I’ll start off with some measurements of the intake side first, thanks to Mike Belben (NewEnglandHondaRebuilders.com) for a badass degreeing fixture which I used to take a majority of these measurements.
Cutaway head, with indicator mounted...
Measuring valve guide height. Mine measured .595" on the one pictured, with a few others measuring .015-.02" taller! What confuses me here is that the helms lists this dimension from .494-.514" which I believe to be incorrect as I measured several heads I have and came up with relatively the same #'s
Here is another reason for me to believe the helms is wrong on this part. The pic in the helms shows this measurement to be taken from the bottom of the spring seat to the top of the valve tip, and should measure 1.4750-1.4935, however when I add the measurement in the pic (1.005") to the installed height of the guide it (.595") it comes to ~1.600" I could see the valve guide maybe moving, but theres no way this dimension can be off this far which is why I believe the helms is wrong in this case, OR there are in fact different H22 heads (1993 helms vs. 1996 head)
Measurement taken here with valve stem seal removed, to determine the hard interferance between the stock retainer and valve guide. Measurement = .665"
Time to install the spring seat and valve stem seal and measure the retainer/valve stem seal clearance. THIS is important when a high lift cam is used as you don't want the retainer crashing into the valve stem seal. Measurement = .525" Now I discussed a bit ago that when I measured the other guides in the head they measured with as much variance as .02", the original being the shortest so the .525" clearance I measured will be .505" on those other guides. This is running dangerously close IMO if a high lift cam is considered and the need for an offset retainer may be in order.
Using the measurements I have taken so far plus the measurements from a stock retainer the valve spring installed height = ~1.450" (height of valve installed between spring seat and retainer.)
I put this stock valvespring in my vise (don't try this at home! haha) and measured the coil bind @ .920"
So take the installed height minus the coil bind and that gives you spring travel before bind, which = .530" Springs have a thing called life cycle, just because you can compress it to a point doesn't mean you ever should. Compressing it to its near limits will drastically reduce the life of the spring. An aftermarket spring should be made to have a higher length of travel and will allow a higher lift cam. Find the spring with least amount of coil bind that still gives you the seat pressure you are looking for. IMO aftermarket springs are a must with any aftermarket cam.
Since I was at it I measured the inner spring coil bind as well, 1.290" installed height and binds @ .735" for a total travel of .550"
The same procedures for measuring can also be applied to the exhaust side, I will get around to that later.
I don’t care to see posts like “my mom has XX brand retainers and XX brand springs and XX brand cams with no issues,” that means nothing. I want to know that a particular setup is going to work on paper FIRST, before finding out after its too late. If a company won’t tell you the specs and limits of their valvetrain then I suggest not buying from them. This also isn’t a thread to talk about what cam is better, if you want to talk about lift in reference to clearance with other valvetrain parts then please do so.
Things we should be looking for…
Spring seat pressure (closed valve pressure)
Spring coil bind
Spring pressure @ XX” of lift
Spring installed height
Retainer type offset vs. non offset
Retainer installed height
Retainer to valve stem seal clearance
The valvetrain I have in my possession is Skunk2, Crower w/+.06" installed height retainers, and stock usdm h22a1. If you would like to contribute any other info about other brands please post up, or PM me and I will include it in this first post.
DISCLAIMER: It is still YOUR responsibility to verify anything discussed here when building your own motor. I didn’t build your engine, therefore I didn’t blow it up. These measurements were all taken off a cutaway 1996 h22a1 head, stock valves, valve seats, retainers, and springs.
I’ll start off with some measurements of the intake side first, thanks to Mike Belben (NewEnglandHondaRebuilders.com) for a badass degreeing fixture which I used to take a majority of these measurements.
Cutaway head, with indicator mounted...
Measuring valve guide height. Mine measured .595" on the one pictured, with a few others measuring .015-.02" taller! What confuses me here is that the helms lists this dimension from .494-.514" which I believe to be incorrect as I measured several heads I have and came up with relatively the same #'s
Here is another reason for me to believe the helms is wrong on this part. The pic in the helms shows this measurement to be taken from the bottom of the spring seat to the top of the valve tip, and should measure 1.4750-1.4935, however when I add the measurement in the pic (1.005") to the installed height of the guide it (.595") it comes to ~1.600" I could see the valve guide maybe moving, but theres no way this dimension can be off this far which is why I believe the helms is wrong in this case, OR there are in fact different H22 heads (1993 helms vs. 1996 head)
Measurement taken here with valve stem seal removed, to determine the hard interferance between the stock retainer and valve guide. Measurement = .665"
Time to install the spring seat and valve stem seal and measure the retainer/valve stem seal clearance. THIS is important when a high lift cam is used as you don't want the retainer crashing into the valve stem seal. Measurement = .525" Now I discussed a bit ago that when I measured the other guides in the head they measured with as much variance as .02", the original being the shortest so the .525" clearance I measured will be .505" on those other guides. This is running dangerously close IMO if a high lift cam is considered and the need for an offset retainer may be in order.
Using the measurements I have taken so far plus the measurements from a stock retainer the valve spring installed height = ~1.450" (height of valve installed between spring seat and retainer.)
I put this stock valvespring in my vise (don't try this at home! haha) and measured the coil bind @ .920"
So take the installed height minus the coil bind and that gives you spring travel before bind, which = .530" Springs have a thing called life cycle, just because you can compress it to a point doesn't mean you ever should. Compressing it to its near limits will drastically reduce the life of the spring. An aftermarket spring should be made to have a higher length of travel and will allow a higher lift cam. Find the spring with least amount of coil bind that still gives you the seat pressure you are looking for. IMO aftermarket springs are a must with any aftermarket cam.
Since I was at it I measured the inner spring coil bind as well, 1.290" installed height and binds @ .735" for a total travel of .550"
The same procedures for measuring can also be applied to the exhaust side, I will get around to that later.
04-01-2007, 02:03 PM
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Re: ** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread ** (Rosko)
A little about springs and retainers...
The installed height of a spring is also where the seat pressure is measured at (the force the valve is held shut measured in pounds). Not all springs are created equal, so its important to find the right one. I can't tell you what works better, just that there are differences and you should be aware of them. Keep in mind that if your installed height varies from whats advertised, your seat pressure will also.
Typically due to the materials aftermarket springs are made of they offer greater seat pressures which allow higher rpm and also because of the construction they can withstand a higher lift and have a shorter coil bind height. As I said before the more you push a spring, the shorter its lifespan will be.
Crower for instance offers 2 different valvesprings. They claim that their stage 3 cam requires an offset retainer (I'll go over that in a bit) which has a .06" greater installed height and also gives another .06" retainer to valve seal clearance. The offset installed height would obviously affect seat pressure which is why they offer the two springs. Theoretically the taller spring and offset retainer would be the better choice for a long lasting combination, BUT it will require slight clearancing of the rockers which really isn't that big of a deal. If you opted not to use this retainer you run the risk of crashing the retainer into the valve stem seal. I believe this is also the issue people are having with the type-s cams. Due to the way the heads are built and the allowable tolerances your head could be different from the next guys, and when the numbers are already that close theres not much room to play with.
The other type of retainer I know of is the Skunk2, which isn't so much offset but rather shorter on the bottom side for more retainer to valve stem seal clearance while still using a stock installed height spring. Heres a generic pic from skunk on how their retainer compares to a stock...
Heres a pic of the rocker/retainer clearance with stock components for reference.
Modified by Rosko at 5:26 PM 4/1/2007
Modified by Rosko at 5:28 PM 4/1/2007
Modified by Rosko at 9:51 AM 5/14/2007
The installed height of a spring is also where the seat pressure is measured at (the force the valve is held shut measured in pounds). Not all springs are created equal, so its important to find the right one. I can't tell you what works better, just that there are differences and you should be aware of them. Keep in mind that if your installed height varies from whats advertised, your seat pressure will also.
Typically due to the materials aftermarket springs are made of they offer greater seat pressures which allow higher rpm and also because of the construction they can withstand a higher lift and have a shorter coil bind height. As I said before the more you push a spring, the shorter its lifespan will be.
Crower for instance offers 2 different valvesprings. They claim that their stage 3 cam requires an offset retainer (I'll go over that in a bit) which has a .06" greater installed height and also gives another .06" retainer to valve seal clearance. The offset installed height would obviously affect seat pressure which is why they offer the two springs. Theoretically the taller spring and offset retainer would be the better choice for a long lasting combination, BUT it will require slight clearancing of the rockers which really isn't that big of a deal. If you opted not to use this retainer you run the risk of crashing the retainer into the valve stem seal. I believe this is also the issue people are having with the type-s cams. Due to the way the heads are built and the allowable tolerances your head could be different from the next guys, and when the numbers are already that close theres not much room to play with.
The other type of retainer I know of is the Skunk2, which isn't so much offset but rather shorter on the bottom side for more retainer to valve stem seal clearance while still using a stock installed height spring. Heres a generic pic from skunk on how their retainer compares to a stock...
Heres a pic of the rocker/retainer clearance with stock components for reference.
Modified by Rosko at 5:26 PM 4/1/2007
Modified by Rosko at 5:28 PM 4/1/2007
Modified by Rosko at 9:51 AM 5/14/2007
04-01-2007, 02:04 PM
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Re: ** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread ** (Rosko)
<<Valvetrain Specs>> Please feel free to add others and I will post them here.
Stock usdm h22a1
Outer Spring Coil Bind= .920"
Seat Pressure= ??? lbs
Seat Pressure at XX" lift ??? lbs
Spring Installed Height 1.450"
Intake Side Ret/Seal Clearance .525-.545"
Exhaust Side Ret/Seal Clearance ???
Crower part# 68184-16 standard installed height spring
pressure @ 1.400" = 92 lbs
pressure @ 1.300" = 108 lbs
pressure @ 1.000" = 195 lbs
pressure @ 0.900" = 224 lbs
Coil bind @ .875"
Crower part# 68187-16 Eibach spring for use with +.06" installed height retainer
pressure @ 1.400" = 100
pressure @ 1.300" = 120
pressure @ 1.000" = 200
pressure @ 0.900" = 231
Coil bind @ .875"
Skunk2 Racing Springs part #311-05-0360 (non Pro-Series)
seat pressure @ 1.400" installed height = 100 lbs
seat pressure @ .500" lift = 240 lbs
maximum lift = .530"
**taken form the following site...
http://www.importperformance.c....html
Modified by Rosko at 9:47 AM 5/14/2007
Modified by Rosko at 9:48 AM 5/14/2007
Stock usdm h22a1
Outer Spring Coil Bind= .920"
Seat Pressure= ??? lbs
Seat Pressure at XX" lift ??? lbs
Spring Installed Height 1.450"
Intake Side Ret/Seal Clearance .525-.545"
Exhaust Side Ret/Seal Clearance ???
Crower part# 68184-16 standard installed height spring
pressure @ 1.400" = 92 lbs
pressure @ 1.300" = 108 lbs
pressure @ 1.000" = 195 lbs
pressure @ 0.900" = 224 lbs
Coil bind @ .875"
Crower part# 68187-16 Eibach spring for use with +.06" installed height retainer
pressure @ 1.400" = 100
pressure @ 1.300" = 120
pressure @ 1.000" = 200
pressure @ 0.900" = 231
Coil bind @ .875"
Skunk2 Racing Springs part #311-05-0360 (non Pro-Series)
seat pressure @ 1.400" installed height = 100 lbs
seat pressure @ .500" lift = 240 lbs
maximum lift = .530"
**taken form the following site...
http://www.importperformance.c....html
Modified by Rosko at 9:47 AM 5/14/2007
Modified by Rosko at 9:48 AM 5/14/2007
04-01-2007, 02:13 PM
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Re: ** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread ** (Rosko)
THANK YOU SHAWN!!
Just because you can install Type S cams on stock valvetrain and not run into problems doesnt mean that you arent stretching the limits of them. One misshift and bye bye valves. I was sent an extra set of valvesprings and retainers with this other head i bought that I was hoping to get pressure tested to see how much travel it takes for them to bind and the amount of seat pressure they supply per given amount of lift.
I'll try and get these pieces tested and post some specs.
I see this thread going to good places
btw, nice fixture
my buddy has one for his Bseries and Mike is sending me an adaptor plate back with my head.
Just because you can install Type S cams on stock valvetrain and not run into problems doesnt mean that you arent stretching the limits of them. One misshift and bye bye valves. I was sent an extra set of valvesprings and retainers with this other head i bought that I was hoping to get pressure tested to see how much travel it takes for them to bind and the amount of seat pressure they supply per given amount of lift.
I'll try and get these pieces tested and post some specs.
I see this thread going to good places
btw, nice fixture
my buddy has one for his Bseries and Mike is sending me an adaptor plate back with my head.
04-01-2007, 02:53 PM
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Re: ** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread ** (98vtec)
Yeah in regards to the type-s situation even if my helms is inaccurate or I just have the wrong year it still lists an acceptable range of the valve guide installed height of .02" AND the installed height of the valve tip also has a .02" range meaning that there could be a difference between your buddy's sister's boyfriend's motor with type-s cams and your motor of up to .04"!!
I was really surprised to see these vary from guide to guide as well, I knew there was a tolerance but I just figured they'd at least all be the same.
I was really surprised to see these vary from guide to guide as well, I knew there was a tolerance but I just figured they'd at least all be the same.
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04-02-2007, 11:29 AM
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Re: (mgags7)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Shawn....I think the helms measures the guides with the spring seat in on the bottom, you're measuring with it out.
Did you happen to mic the spring seat?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, it has three steps on it...
the surface the main spring sets on is .052" thick
the surfaced the inner spring sets on is .129" thick
and the total height of it is .189" tall
So if that were the case it still doesn't add up. The pic in the helms doesn't show the seat either...
Did you happen to mic the spring seat?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, it has three steps on it...
the surface the main spring sets on is .052" thick
the surfaced the inner spring sets on is .129" thick
and the total height of it is .189" tall
So if that were the case it still doesn't add up. The pic in the helms doesn't show the seat either...
04-02-2007, 11:44 AM
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Re: (mgags7)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh and btw my crower3s with the regular height springs and their cromoly retainers works just fine
lol
</TD></TR></TABLE>
*looks over Matt's dyno chart....* hmnn... lol
I just checked crowers site and they don't even list the regular retainer anymore... whats with that? It was on there not too long ago.
lol
</TD></TR></TABLE>*looks over Matt's dyno chart....* hmnn... lol
I just checked crowers site and they don't even list the regular retainer anymore... whats with that? It was on there not too long ago.
04-02-2007, 12:48 PM
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Re: (prelittlelude)
i was wondering the same thing... why do you have so many extra parts that you can just go ahead and cut them all in half? lol. anyway, beautiful thread - definitely going to come in handy with my stupid valvetrain problems :\
04-02-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: (alterdcreations)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol
i wish he cut straight thru the center of the port</TD></TR></TABLE>
well.......he bought my spare head.....
i wish he cut straight thru the center of the port</TD></TR></TABLE>
well.......he bought my spare head.....
04-02-2007, 01:49 PM
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Re: (98vtec)
that particular head was the first vtec one I ever had, got it like 5 some years ago. I built myself a round tube header and ported the exhaust port out to a rounder shape instead of an oval. car ran fine, but the floor of the exhaust port was too thin and eventually cracked and leaked coolant. I figured out after that, I couldn't weld aluminum either and turned an easy fix (for someone else) into a nightmare, lol. I guess thats just how I learn haha.
oh and then last fall when I dropped a valve, the crower 3 cam in that pic broke in just the right place to where I already had the head cut in half.
I did section the head through the port too, that was the main reason for cutting it, I'll have to post a pic of that sometime too.
oh and then last fall when I dropped a valve, the crower 3 cam in that pic broke in just the right place to where I already had the head cut in half.
I did section the head through the port too, that was the main reason for cutting it, I'll have to post a pic of that sometime too.
04-02-2007, 01:57 PM
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Re: (Rosko)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rosko »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that particular head was the first vtec one I ever had, got it like 5 some years ago. I built myself a round tube header and ported the exhaust port out to a rounder shape instead of an oval. car ran fine, but the floor of the exhaust port was too thin and eventually cracked and leaked coolant. I figured out after that, I couldn't weld aluminum either and turned an easy fix (for someone else) into a nightmare, lol. I guess thats just how I learn haha.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
can we get pics of this?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
can we get pics of this?
04-02-2007, 02:34 PM
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Re: (98vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
can we get pics of this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
**edited out pics**
keep in mind that I made this back in '02 0r '03, the original plan was to get it coated, but the #3 tube kept breaking after the weld at the flange (mig welded) I pretty much gave up on it after the head cracked in the port. After seeing what RMF's and SMSP's are doing I definately would have reworked the collector area to something smaller where the tubes came together, and then tapered it out. right now its just 3 inch straight.
Modified by Rosko at 9:53 AM 5/14/2007
can we get pics of this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
**edited out pics**
keep in mind that I made this back in '02 0r '03, the original plan was to get it coated, but the #3 tube kept breaking after the weld at the flange (mig welded) I pretty much gave up on it after the head cracked in the port. After seeing what RMF's and SMSP's are doing I definately would have reworked the collector area to something smaller where the tubes came together, and then tapered it out. right now its just 3 inch straight.
Modified by Rosko at 9:53 AM 5/14/2007
05-14-2007, 06:56 AM
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Re: (alterdcreations)
added some info up above on skunk2 springs and retainers. thanks to user blue92ehsi over on SFPOA.net for the links
08-01-2007, 06:36 PM
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Re: ** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread ** (Rosko)
Hey Rosko I just wanted to tell you that you have to much free time. J/K.
I need to order a EuroR mani and kit from you for a h22 in working on for a friend. If you don't remember me I'm Mike Webbs friend. I talked to you on myspace a bunch.
I need to order a EuroR mani and kit from you for a h22 in working on for a friend. If you don't remember me I'm Mike Webbs friend. I talked to you on myspace a bunch.
02-10-2008, 08:26 AM
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Re: ** Official H22 Valvetrain Tech, Info, and Measurements Thread ** (TwoKSiR)
Bump to your mother.
I'm building for 400 whp (turbo) in my '00 lude. I have a built block and am trying to decide on what to do with my head. The head has around 100k miles on it, bought it from someone, not sure how they ran it.
I know I'm going to get it cleaned, milled, new valve guides & valves. What I'm not sure about is the springs & retainers. I'm planning on sticking with stock cams for now as I should easily be able to get to 400 hp with them.
You say that it's a really good idea to upgrade your springs/retainers with performance cams. Well, what about if I'm keeping stock cams? I've read lots of arguments on both sides of the fence on this in h-t threads, pp.com & po.com.
I've heard, besides accommodating the clearance heights of higher profile cams, that performance springs are supposed to be able to help reduce valve float. Will this be an issue with stock springs at 400 whp? I know you mentioned that springs have a lifespan, after 100k miles, especially not knowing if the previous driver thought revin the hell out his engine was a fun time, I'm thinking I should as least get new OEM springs, but if I do that... I'm thinking mine as well upgrade.
BUT, if stock springs don't really wear that much and they'll perform fine at 400 whp, then I'm all about saving $ b/c I gotta lotta crap left to buy. Same thing for retainers pretty much. I've heard horror stories of stock retainers cracking... is this a myth or is this something to think about? Was thinking maybe new OEM, but if I'm gonna buy some anyhow... upgrade. I know having lighter retainers can possibly improve valve float issues & valve response, but again, is this something necessary at 400 whp?
Thanks again for all the info Rosko, very informative.
Modified by Ludeology at 9:37 AM 2/10/2008
Modified by Ludeology at 9:38 AM 2/10/2008
Modified by Ludeology at 9:42 AM 2/10/2008
I'm building for 400 whp (turbo) in my '00 lude. I have a built block and am trying to decide on what to do with my head. The head has around 100k miles on it, bought it from someone, not sure how they ran it.
I know I'm going to get it cleaned, milled, new valve guides & valves. What I'm not sure about is the springs & retainers. I'm planning on sticking with stock cams for now as I should easily be able to get to 400 hp with them.
You say that it's a really good idea to upgrade your springs/retainers with performance cams. Well, what about if I'm keeping stock cams? I've read lots of arguments on both sides of the fence on this in h-t threads, pp.com & po.com.
I've heard, besides accommodating the clearance heights of higher profile cams, that performance springs are supposed to be able to help reduce valve float. Will this be an issue with stock springs at 400 whp? I know you mentioned that springs have a lifespan, after 100k miles, especially not knowing if the previous driver thought revin the hell out his engine was a fun time, I'm thinking I should as least get new OEM springs, but if I do that... I'm thinking mine as well upgrade.
BUT, if stock springs don't really wear that much and they'll perform fine at 400 whp, then I'm all about saving $ b/c I gotta lotta crap left to buy. Same thing for retainers pretty much. I've heard horror stories of stock retainers cracking... is this a myth or is this something to think about? Was thinking maybe new OEM, but if I'm gonna buy some anyhow... upgrade. I know having lighter retainers can possibly improve valve float issues & valve response, but again, is this something necessary at 400 whp?
Thanks again for all the info Rosko, very informative.
Modified by Ludeology at 9:37 AM 2/10/2008
Modified by Ludeology at 9:38 AM 2/10/2008
Modified by Ludeology at 9:42 AM 2/10/2008