What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car...
02-14-2006, 06:23 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car...
I'm making this thread so that I don't get peppered by pm's every so often.
I've purchased two sets of TODA sports injection kits in the past year, and each one has been a little work to make it run like oem.
eye candy:
I would like to share this information, as it may help those thinking about purchasing throttle bodies to see what all it entails.
For those who have purchase throttle bodies, this might help you get your setup running sooner.
1. These particular throttle bodies are for b16/ itr heads. So if you have a gsr head, you may want to look elsewhere for itb's that will match the flanges and ports on your head. Or you can make an adaptor plate from gsr to b16 style flanges, but the angle of the ports is still different and may affect flow.
2. You will need some AN fittings and hose. You will need a banjo style fitting to bolt to your fuel filter, a short piece of braided hose, then another fitting to the itb's fuel rail (it is included in this set). Now is a good time to add a fuel pressure gauge at the fuel filter. You will also need a fitting on the other end of the fuel rail and braided hose to go to a fuel pressure regulator (I'm using SARD in this case, but you could figure out a way to run whatever you prefer). Then you will need some more hose to go to the fuel return line coming out of the driver's side firewall area. You can get creative with the fuel lines and make it bling out if you so choose. EARLS or other fittings can look very nice in your engine bay, but the main thing is that everything is connected and working properly + NO LEAKS! Be prepared for fuel to leak when you start unbolting the injectors and fuel filter, etc. Have some rags ready to catch this stuff!
3. You will need a new intake manifold gasket (presuming you are upgrading from oem IM or aftermarket one). Make sure you clean off the head of all the oem paper crap. This is also a good time to add a phenolic IM gasket such as hondata/ outlaw engineering/ or whatever Rene M sells..... Make sure you test the fitment of your gasket - as the ports aren't necessarily open or in quite the same shape as yours. This is also a good time to do a "race" install of such gaskets and block off that water port coming off the back of the head near the distributor side. I just used a hondata "race" IM gasket without that port cut out. Then I put a cap and clamp over that port on the IM/ ITB flange. At this point, you will need to "T" the hose that used to go there into the heater core line going into the firewall. It's pretty easy, and I can post up the p/n for the napa hard T I used as it's heat resistant (this is important). Be prepared for coolant to spill when you unbolt the stock IM, so have towels ready!!!
4. You will also need to cap the little port on the water pipe on the back of the motor and clamp it. This line used to run to the throttle body and IM, and won't be needed anymore. I think it would be a good idea to put a threaded fitting on here or simply weld it closed, but for now I just capped it.
5. Remove the stock or aftermarket intake - whether that's a short ram, cai, or stock box, etc. This will just give you more room to work with, and you can sell these items to recoup some of the $ spent on your upgrade.
6. You will need to remove the stock IM and TB combo. Just leave them together in one unit and separate from the the intake tract. Also remove the IM support bracket from the car as it won't be needed or used. You can also sell the stock IM and TB to recoup some more $.
7. You will now simply install the itb's in the reverse order of the IM removal. Make sure you unplug the sensors and label them if you're not sure which is which. The tps and map sensor have the same plug, but different wires, so be careful..... Also make sure to unplug the iacv.
8. I should've probably put this first, but you will need some additional stuff to get this all sorted out right... TPS sensor: I'm using a honda one. You can use a toyota one, but it can be tricky to make your ems convert the voltages. I like oem honda stuff, and luckily I purchased my itb's from king motorsports, who had already made an adaptor plate for honda tps for me.
It's a pretty simple design. It just has two holes to bolt to the toda itb's, and two more slotted holes for adjustment of the honda tps. It's about 1/2" thick.
9. Throttle cable. You will want to make sure the throttle cable is able to mount up correctly (oem should suffice), and that the throttles open 100% when you press the gas pedal. You will also want to make sure all of the throttles are in sync, so that they all open in unison and the flappers are in the same position when open and closed. You should calibrate your tps at this point to reflect fully open and fully closed. Also check your gas pedal for the appropriate range of motion. On my EF, I had to bend the pedal up to allow for greater range of motion (which the itb's had compared to the oem single throttle body). In extreme cases, you may have to cut and reweld your pedal arm so that it has the apppropriate range of motion, and is still easy to reach with your foot, heel-toe, etc.
10. You will also need to have some type of vacuum lines attached to your itb's. The cleanest way to do this is to tap the underside of the itb's after each throttle in the runners and run the four lines to a vacuum canister. This should be about the size of a coke can, and is an easy way to mount the MAP sensor. You can also use an adaptor plate or something to mount the IACV as well. You will also need to run a line from your vacuum can to the brake booster or you won't have brakes! An alternative method is to use the port on top of #1 or #4 runner that toda provides, and put a brass fitting in there + use that for your brake booster vacuum. This is done by toda presumably so that you can use the itb's in a lhd or rhd vehicle.
11. Presuming you've done everything correctly, you will want to prime the fuel system by turning the key to the 'ON' position without starting the car. Now check the fuel pressure gauge and make sure it's around 48-52psi with the vacuum line off. You may have to turn the key off and on a couple of times to get to the fuel pressure you're looking for.
12. EMS is important. You *can* use a stock ecu and piggyback like vafc to get this to run. BUT why spend all the $ on these if you aren't willing to have them used to their full potential? You won't realize the power gains possible without a fully programmable ecu, even one solution as inexpensive as a p28 with crome/ neptune, hondata s300, etc... The most important thing about tuning these so far is that tps tuning parameters are much more livable in partial throttle driving.
Of course you'd want a wideband o2 sensor, etc to get your tuning to where it needs to be, or take your setup straight to your local tuning guru and get tuned!
13. Engine bay. When I installed these in my EF, space is a little tight and one part of the itb's fuel rail fittings touched the bigger itr brake booster that I had already installed. I've actually had to bang in part of the brake booster to clear the fittings. Be prepared for subtle frustrating fitment issues!
14. Filters. I run them on the street. I'd advise you tune without them on the dyno, but then put the filters on for the very last pull after tuning is done so you can see the difference. Filters do seem to lose power - some more than others, and some not nearly at all (please pm me if you can find filters that don't lose any power - I would like to try them). But I would rather live with a little power loss than some debris making its way into my motor. You may wish to build some type of plenum box to use a flat style filter and direct air to the itb's. You can always do this later - once they're in the car and running.
This is just to help you get started, and I hope it's useful. If you think I need to add anything, please let me know. I'm sure there's a lot I forgot or left out.
Now on with the pics:
itb's from the underside with the vacuum fittings in the runners, vacuum can mounted up, all the ports running in, and the adaptor for honda tps + map sensor and iacv adaptor plate, and coolant port blocked off...
(phenolic hondata IM gasket without the coolant port cut out, test fitting on itb flange)
Installed in the car. You can see the fitment near the brake booster and MC here, as well as firewall clearance and some of the fuel lines/ fittings:
Modified by Black R at 11:00 AM 2/14/2006
I've purchased two sets of TODA sports injection kits in the past year, and each one has been a little work to make it run like oem.
eye candy:
I would like to share this information, as it may help those thinking about purchasing throttle bodies to see what all it entails.
For those who have purchase throttle bodies, this might help you get your setup running sooner.
1. These particular throttle bodies are for b16/ itr heads. So if you have a gsr head, you may want to look elsewhere for itb's that will match the flanges and ports on your head. Or you can make an adaptor plate from gsr to b16 style flanges, but the angle of the ports is still different and may affect flow.
2. You will need some AN fittings and hose. You will need a banjo style fitting to bolt to your fuel filter, a short piece of braided hose, then another fitting to the itb's fuel rail (it is included in this set). Now is a good time to add a fuel pressure gauge at the fuel filter. You will also need a fitting on the other end of the fuel rail and braided hose to go to a fuel pressure regulator (I'm using SARD in this case, but you could figure out a way to run whatever you prefer). Then you will need some more hose to go to the fuel return line coming out of the driver's side firewall area. You can get creative with the fuel lines and make it bling out if you so choose. EARLS or other fittings can look very nice in your engine bay, but the main thing is that everything is connected and working properly + NO LEAKS! Be prepared for fuel to leak when you start unbolting the injectors and fuel filter, etc. Have some rags ready to catch this stuff!
3. You will need a new intake manifold gasket (presuming you are upgrading from oem IM or aftermarket one). Make sure you clean off the head of all the oem paper crap. This is also a good time to add a phenolic IM gasket such as hondata/ outlaw engineering/ or whatever Rene M sells..... Make sure you test the fitment of your gasket - as the ports aren't necessarily open or in quite the same shape as yours. This is also a good time to do a "race" install of such gaskets and block off that water port coming off the back of the head near the distributor side. I just used a hondata "race" IM gasket without that port cut out. Then I put a cap and clamp over that port on the IM/ ITB flange. At this point, you will need to "T" the hose that used to go there into the heater core line going into the firewall. It's pretty easy, and I can post up the p/n for the napa hard T I used as it's heat resistant (this is important). Be prepared for coolant to spill when you unbolt the stock IM, so have towels ready!!!
4. You will also need to cap the little port on the water pipe on the back of the motor and clamp it. This line used to run to the throttle body and IM, and won't be needed anymore. I think it would be a good idea to put a threaded fitting on here or simply weld it closed, but for now I just capped it.
5. Remove the stock or aftermarket intake - whether that's a short ram, cai, or stock box, etc. This will just give you more room to work with, and you can sell these items to recoup some of the $ spent on your upgrade.
6. You will need to remove the stock IM and TB combo. Just leave them together in one unit and separate from the the intake tract. Also remove the IM support bracket from the car as it won't be needed or used. You can also sell the stock IM and TB to recoup some more $.
7. You will now simply install the itb's in the reverse order of the IM removal. Make sure you unplug the sensors and label them if you're not sure which is which. The tps and map sensor have the same plug, but different wires, so be careful..... Also make sure to unplug the iacv.
8. I should've probably put this first, but you will need some additional stuff to get this all sorted out right... TPS sensor: I'm using a honda one. You can use a toyota one, but it can be tricky to make your ems convert the voltages. I like oem honda stuff, and luckily I purchased my itb's from king motorsports, who had already made an adaptor plate for honda tps for me.
It's a pretty simple design. It just has two holes to bolt to the toda itb's, and two more slotted holes for adjustment of the honda tps. It's about 1/2" thick. 9. Throttle cable. You will want to make sure the throttle cable is able to mount up correctly (oem should suffice), and that the throttles open 100% when you press the gas pedal. You will also want to make sure all of the throttles are in sync, so that they all open in unison and the flappers are in the same position when open and closed. You should calibrate your tps at this point to reflect fully open and fully closed. Also check your gas pedal for the appropriate range of motion. On my EF, I had to bend the pedal up to allow for greater range of motion (which the itb's had compared to the oem single throttle body). In extreme cases, you may have to cut and reweld your pedal arm so that it has the apppropriate range of motion, and is still easy to reach with your foot, heel-toe, etc.
10. You will also need to have some type of vacuum lines attached to your itb's. The cleanest way to do this is to tap the underside of the itb's after each throttle in the runners and run the four lines to a vacuum canister. This should be about the size of a coke can, and is an easy way to mount the MAP sensor. You can also use an adaptor plate or something to mount the IACV as well. You will also need to run a line from your vacuum can to the brake booster or you won't have brakes! An alternative method is to use the port on top of #1 or #4 runner that toda provides, and put a brass fitting in there + use that for your brake booster vacuum. This is done by toda presumably so that you can use the itb's in a lhd or rhd vehicle.
11. Presuming you've done everything correctly, you will want to prime the fuel system by turning the key to the 'ON' position without starting the car. Now check the fuel pressure gauge and make sure it's around 48-52psi with the vacuum line off. You may have to turn the key off and on a couple of times to get to the fuel pressure you're looking for.
12. EMS is important. You *can* use a stock ecu and piggyback like vafc to get this to run. BUT why spend all the $ on these if you aren't willing to have them used to their full potential? You won't realize the power gains possible without a fully programmable ecu, even one solution as inexpensive as a p28 with crome/ neptune, hondata s300, etc... The most important thing about tuning these so far is that tps tuning parameters are much more livable in partial throttle driving.
Of course you'd want a wideband o2 sensor, etc to get your tuning to where it needs to be, or take your setup straight to your local tuning guru and get tuned!
13. Engine bay. When I installed these in my EF, space is a little tight and one part of the itb's fuel rail fittings touched the bigger itr brake booster that I had already installed. I've actually had to bang in part of the brake booster to clear the fittings. Be prepared for subtle frustrating fitment issues!
14. Filters. I run them on the street. I'd advise you tune without them on the dyno, but then put the filters on for the very last pull after tuning is done so you can see the difference. Filters do seem to lose power - some more than others, and some not nearly at all (please pm me if you can find filters that don't lose any power - I would like to try them). But I would rather live with a little power loss than some debris making its way into my motor. You may wish to build some type of plenum box to use a flat style filter and direct air to the itb's. You can always do this later - once they're in the car and running.
This is just to help you get started, and I hope it's useful. If you think I need to add anything, please let me know. I'm sure there's a lot I forgot or left out.
Now on with the pics:
itb's from the underside with the vacuum fittings in the runners, vacuum can mounted up, all the ports running in, and the adaptor for honda tps + map sensor and iacv adaptor plate, and coolant port blocked off...
(phenolic hondata IM gasket without the coolant port cut out, test fitting on itb flange)
Installed in the car. You can see the fitment near the brake booster and MC here, as well as firewall clearance and some of the fuel lines/ fittings:
Modified by Black R at 11:00 AM 2/14/2006
02-14-2006, 08:11 AM
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (AssPenny)
looks damn nice and very informative writeup! i have some 52mm twms if anyone is intersted (sorry for the shameless plug)
(sorry for the shameless plug)
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02-14-2006, 08:50 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car...
02-14-2006, 10:28 AM
#9
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Thread Starter
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (len)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by len »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or you can just drop the car off at P1 Auto. 
I kid.</TD></TR></TABLE>
honestly, that is the best idea.
i can't tell you how many MONTHS i wasted on the diy method.....
I kid.</TD></TR></TABLE>honestly, that is the best idea.
i can't tell you how many MONTHS i wasted on the diy method.....
02-14-2006, 10:29 AM
#10
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (AssPenny)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AssPenny »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you really need the IACV anymore with an EMS?</TD></TR></TABLE>
02-14-2006, 10:30 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (AssPenny)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AssPenny »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you really need the IACV anymore with an EMS?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not really, but it is nice to have..... if you're using the ELD feature, etc.....
Not really, but it is nice to have..... if you're using the ELD feature, etc.....
02-14-2006, 01:15 PM
#13
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (B18CXr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18CXr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">see link below...
http://www.p1auto.com/jack/itb...l.doc</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh My...That brings a tear to my eyes.
http://www.p1auto.com/jack/itb...l.doc</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh My...That brings a tear to my eyes.
02-14-2006, 01:56 PM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (whitelightning)
Nice...what kind of gains will this yield?
see below, only change was the installation of the Toda ITB's
note the nasty mid range gains
see below, only change was the installation of the Toda ITB's
note the nasty mid range gains
02-14-2006, 02:01 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (B18CXr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18CXr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">see link below...
http://www.p1auto.com/jack/itb...l.doc
</TD></TR></TABLE>
*right click*
*save as*
DAMN. Why didn't you spontaneously post this a few months ago and save me some headaches?!
http://www.p1auto.com/jack/itb...l.doc
</TD></TR></TABLE>
*right click*
*save as*
DAMN. Why didn't you spontaneously post this a few months ago and save me some headaches?!
02-14-2006, 02:13 PM
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (Black R)
Where can I get these screens that cover the throttle body ?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"></TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
</TD></TR></TABLE>
02-14-2006, 03:12 PM
#18
Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (Ekizzle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekizzle »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Where can I get these screens that cover the throttle body ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats interesting...never seen those screens before. looks like A/C filter stuff
</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats interesting...never seen those screens before. looks like A/C filter stuff
02-15-2006, 01:46 AM
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (Black R)
sorry just wondering if you or anyone can tell the the ID (inner diameter) of the toda ITB's i guessing they are between 45mm -50mm???
anyone?
thx in advance!
anyone?
thx in advance!
02-15-2006, 06:18 AM
#21
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (ITSUKA)
48mm at the plates
JunR, I need to retune, so I can't tell you as yet. I have noticed a lot of midrange gains and throttle response is like no other (of course).
JunR, I need to retune, so I can't tell you as yet. I have noticed a lot of midrange gains and throttle response is like no other (of course).
02-20-2006, 08:55 PM
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (Black R)
great writeup! on that graph was that a stock itr motor? also what is the power loss estimate with the filters on?
02-27-2006, 07:30 PM
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Re: What you need to run toda individual throttle bodies on your car... (Jay-Spec02)
im over half way through my first build on my first R. twm, rods and pistons, spec c's, s300. everything mentioned above has been discussed with my builder/tuner. hoping within a monthish ill post a full thread with pics and use all input and discussionj for the 2nd stage of the engine build. (finalize things, - smsp. cooling, oil, blah blah)
thanks for the boost of confidence guys im definately stoked to see end product
thanks for the boost of confidence guys im definately stoked to see end product