Technical Discussion on Tuning an FI car from Scratch

[TurblowR]

Hey mase, let me know when you come back to cali, i want you to tune my built motor sorry for OT

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[Alstare]

How about some info on reading plugs since this seems to be a really key point to good tuning. There doesn't seem to be alot of coverage on the net other then general info on it..

This seems to be one of the taboo topic's of good tuners...

But i guess noone wants to give away there lively hood understandably soo...

[Arturbo]

the plug checking is a secret.. jk. Mase, feel free to take this one. I guess draw a pic of one.

art

[Drew Peacock]

http://www.theultralightplace.com/sparkplugs.htm

[Arturbo]

Originally Posted by turbozxi

http://www.theultralightplace.com/sparkplugs.htm

Its actually alot easier than that.

[Drew Peacock]

Originally Posted by Arturbo

Its actually alot easier than that.

Do tell?

[soon2b]

You were talking about knowing what the compression numbers should be for certain ratio's. What should the numbers be for 9:1 pistons in a h22. Sorry if this question is off the topic but it is something i would really like to know. Thanks

[White Smoke]

Mase, Keep it up I want to know more more more
I always second guess myself when checking plugs I always think I am reading them wrong or my readings are inaccurate. Hook it up with some tuner secrets. lol
Great Write-up

[dirtySOHC's]

Originally Posted by Alstare

How about some info on reading plugs since this seems to be a really key point to good tuning. There doesn't seem to be alot of coverage on the net other then general info on it..

This seems to be one of the taboo topic's of good tuners...

But i guess noone wants to give away there lively hood understandably soo...

id like to know as well.

you mentioned you can tell the amount of ignition timing a motor is running by reading a plug. how? too much timing =, too little timing = ???

also i dont want to get too specific on AEM or hondata but i plan on purchasing the AEM EMS to tune and id like to do it myself. anyway i understand the ignition numbers but the fuel? 210? 680? and so on.....that shit totally confuses me.

i dont plan to jump right in to tuning on my own which is why i want to soak in as much info as possible.

i've been able to keep my car running on the hack for over a year just off reading the pulgs. so i think if i learn a system well enough i will be able to street tune on my own.

THIS THREAD ROCKS BY THE WAY!

[jdmtim]

You're 300% right!! Most of us just go off what were told from "a friends friend of my sister", I hope this tread never dies, Mase keep the knowledge coming. All the parts in the world don't mean a thing, if can't make them work as a team!!!!

[Universal Magnetic]

:Everybody has there own way of starting a tune. I personally always check these things before starting any tune, they aren't in any order.

1. Compression: Mase is right, just cause little HT Johnny says the motor is 9:1 because that's what the JE piston box says, doesn't mean it's really 9:1. Also, compression will give you an idea of how good the mechanical condition of the motor is.

2. Synch Ignition Timing: I always make sure my Laptop is reading the same ignition values as the timing light shows @ the crank pulley. This is by far the step that can screw up a tune if missed.

3. Check Fluids: Always check oil and coolant levels all the time. Especially when tuning a daily driver car. Sometimes people don't take care of their cars!

4. Wiring: Especially when the owner does his own work wiring a boost cotroller or any type of extra sensor added to the existing harness.

5. Supporting Parts: Make sure you check and verify the right spark plug heat range, size of injectors, fuel pump, FPR, base fuel pressure, wastegate spring pressure, size of nitrous jets, etc. These parts need to be able to support the horsepower demands of the engine.

6. Fuel: Verify what octane level the fuel is, from 87-93 pump gas, or C16 leaded
race gas.

7. Wideband O2: Make sure the wideband your using is operating properly/accurately so you know your AFR numbers are where they should be to avoiding melting pistons.

I'm still a newbie at tuning i've only used AEM and hondata systems so far and i still got a ways to go. I've signed up for the EFI101 class but never got any time off to go because of race season and work. My co workers Sean Mcelderry and John Reed do all these steps everytime we start a tune and it's definitely helped us so hopefully it will help you.

peace and chicken grease

[Rory Breaker]

Great thread guys

[B18CXr]

i understand the ignition numbers but the fuel? 210? 680? and so on.....that shit totally confuses me.



Taken from the instruction .PDF provided with all EMS units....

[EE_Chris]

Great thread!

I would like to add, as others have, that an understanding of Speed-Density metered systems is in order as well. How can you tune if you don't even understand what the sensors on the motor are doing and how they are interacting with one another?

I have in my possesion quite a few .pdf's that explain Honda's fuel injection system. Its a good read and its free to you - just throw me a PM with an e-mail address that can hold a 10M file (zipped) (Yahoo! works great for this).

If you want it, but can't PM me for some reason - my e-mail is ics4me@yahoo.com.

[Overblown-Teg]

I'd like some details on the plug reading and tips on tuning timing, especially part throttle.

[b00sted2.0L]

good write up.

[buckfittyone]

lets get more specific on tuning proper ignition timing

[DENCIO]

Originally Posted by buckfittyone

lets get more specific on tuning proper ignition timing

like he said

[JDM EJ1 95]

PLEASE keep this thread going with usefull information... i am EXTREMELY interested in what goes into the tuning aspects of these FI hondas and other cars in general

[Mase]

Originally Posted by soon2b

You were talking about knowing what the compression numbers should be for certain ratio's. What should the numbers be for 9:1 pistons in a h22. Sorry if this question is off the topic but it is something i would really like to know. Thanks

for instance, my gauge will usually read 200-210 psi for approx. 9:1 compression. 10:1 is usually 230-240...

[Mase]

Originally Posted by Overblown-Teg

I'd like some details on the plug reading and tips on tuning timing, especially part throttle.

The correct way to tune ignition timing is on a steady state dyno, hold it at a certain load cell and adjust the timing until the maximum torque is achieved. We actually used one of my cars i street tuned, the timing was pretty damn close. maybe 1-3 degrees off at most, and we are talking about minimal difference. so for partial throttle dont worry as much... just make sure your AFR's are in check, which 90% of HT tuners and shop owners can never tune ALL of partial throttle for shit, I have a nice collection of "GREAT" tuners who's partial throttle maps are just something to laugh at.

Ignition timing under WOT is a little more subjective.

A few things you need to consider before tuning:

Compression Ratio, Bore Size, Fuel Octane, Boost pressure and other factors (we wont get into much detail).

As we've already discussed why you run less timing w/ more boost or load, thats all im going to cover on that.


As far as the spark plug reading....its sorta hard to explain, and ive been sworn to the secret haha basically, you can tell by the color change of the spark plug what kind of timing. you will also know, w/ any type of "snow" or white specs, you are experiencing detonation and the motor will not last.

[JDM EJ1 95]

im extremely interested in all of this.. i need a great place to start at.. anyone have links or resources that you can post just so i can read a lot.?

[Mase]

Originally Posted by EE_Chris

Great thread!

I would like to add, as others have, that an understanding of Speed-Density metered systems is in order as well. How can you tune if you don't even understand what the sensors on the motor are doing and how they are interacting with one another?

I have in my possesion quite a few .pdf's that explain Honda's fuel injection system. Its a good read and its free to you - just throw me a PM with an e-mail address that can hold a 10M file (zipped) (Yahoo! works great for this).

If you want it, but can't PM me for some reason - my e-mail is ics4me@yahoo.com.

Yeah id love to read it. Ill send u a pm.

basically most people will know Honda uses a speed density system. The cars use whats called a MAP sensor which only measures pressure. (its actually a flexible diaphram that flexs due to pressure changes) They calculate the the increment of fuel by pressure and rpms. once you start messing with the flow of the engine, the caculation or parameters of the stock Fuel Map is greatly different. I think j davis went into this quite a bit in his hack thread if im not mistaken.


The other system uses whats called a mass airflow system. which measures the actual airflow instead of pressure like the map sensor.

this is why its extremely important to properly tune a FI car. Just because a certain system is say at 14 psi. that doesnt mean the flow cant change. slap on a larger turbo and chances are, its going to flow a hell of a lot more at the same 14 psi.


Other important sensors are: TPS sensor, Intake Air Temp sensor, Coolant temp, rpm or tach signal, and of course your wideband o2.


can anyone tell me why even the TPS sensor is important?

[Mase]

Originally Posted by JDM EJ1 95

im extremely interested in all of this.. i need a great place to start at.. anyone have links or resources that you can post just so i can read a lot.?

my honest answer to that is sign up for Ben Straders EFI101 class at http://www.efi101.com

he covers a lot of this same material, and in even greater detail.

[Paul_VR6]

Originally Posted by Mase

can anyone tell me why even the TPS sensor is important?

Acceleration enrichment, if you didn't have it the A/F would dip low on sudden throttle openings. Do this under boost and you might even get the silver flecks on your spark plugs that you always wanted.

You don't need a TPS at all for steady state (you can run off of MAP/RPM values with no trouble) but transients are all shot to heck.