H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out...
10-13-2003, 08:21 PM
#1
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H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out...
Well, i've had both cranks outta my motors, but haven't had time to do much w/ them, so I thought I may make some use outta my time.
Noone has ever been able to say for sure whether the cranks were forged or cast, and which ones are which. Noone has also been able to say why the H23 is prone to spinning bearings after a fair amount of mileage.
After seeing both cranks outta similar-mileage motors, I've made a few observations.
- The H22 crank has some nice, large counterweights, and each one is cut at the end exactly as if it were balanced from the factory.
- The H23 crank has much smaller counterweights, and it is not cut anywhere, so it appears as if it was NOT balanced from the factory. I know that through the production there are inconsistencies, and the crank would have to be cut somewhere to balance it.
I believe that this is the main reason that the H23 is prone to spinning bearings. Bearing clearances and most of the bottom end's specs are exactly the same between the two motors, leaving nothing except for the R/S ratio and production processes that could cause the bearings to spin. This is a good explanation, considering that the H23's usually spin'em after a good # of miles, after the bearings have been able to take a beating; also, the H22 does not seem to have this problem, even though it rev's a good deal higher. This has made me decide that before reassembling my motor, I am going to plunk the extra $130 to have the bottom end dynamically balanced, since I would not even consider doing otherwise after seeing both cranks and having my first H23 spin a bearing and snap a rod.
- Both cranks seemed to "ring" when tapped w/ a screwdriver, but the H23's seemed a bit duller.
- Both cranks looked EXACTLY the same, as far as how they were made. The surface of the metal looks the same, the casting marks and everything are the same between the cranks, suggesting that they both were forged.
I have been waiting to get some pictures before posting, but it's taken too long and I decided to go ahead and post this. Pictures will come soon.
The cranks were out of a 92 Si and a 94 VTEC.
Noone has ever been able to say for sure whether the cranks were forged or cast, and which ones are which. Noone has also been able to say why the H23 is prone to spinning bearings after a fair amount of mileage.
After seeing both cranks outta similar-mileage motors, I've made a few observations.
- The H22 crank has some nice, large counterweights, and each one is cut at the end exactly as if it were balanced from the factory.
- The H23 crank has much smaller counterweights, and it is not cut anywhere, so it appears as if it was NOT balanced from the factory. I know that through the production there are inconsistencies, and the crank would have to be cut somewhere to balance it.
I believe that this is the main reason that the H23 is prone to spinning bearings. Bearing clearances and most of the bottom end's specs are exactly the same between the two motors, leaving nothing except for the R/S ratio and production processes that could cause the bearings to spin. This is a good explanation, considering that the H23's usually spin'em after a good # of miles, after the bearings have been able to take a beating; also, the H22 does not seem to have this problem, even though it rev's a good deal higher. This has made me decide that before reassembling my motor, I am going to plunk the extra $130 to have the bottom end dynamically balanced, since I would not even consider doing otherwise after seeing both cranks and having my first H23 spin a bearing and snap a rod.
- Both cranks seemed to "ring" when tapped w/ a screwdriver, but the H23's seemed a bit duller.
- Both cranks looked EXACTLY the same, as far as how they were made. The surface of the metal looks the same, the casting marks and everything are the same between the cranks, suggesting that they both were forged.
I have been waiting to get some pictures before posting, but it's taken too long and I decided to go ahead and post this. Pictures will come soon.
The cranks were out of a 92 Si and a 94 VTEC.
10-14-2003, 05:28 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why don't you do a metal hardness test and actually find out if there's a difference 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd be glad to, but what's involved, or where could I take'em to get it done?
</TD></TR></TABLE>I'd be glad to, but what's involved, or where could I take'em to get it done?
10-14-2003, 08:05 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (95 lude)
Another thing that made me think about this was Satan's old motor's crank. That thing split like a *****, even though it was balanced!
I'm thinking that when he revved it that high, it was hitting a harmonic frequency, which was REALLY layin into the crank. I've heard of H23 VTEC's runnin to 7400-7600 daily, and lasting a good while. But Satan's revved to 8k-8.5k, if i remember correctly. I think that there's a harmonic frequency that comes in at ~8k somewhere and shakes the hell outta the crank....but that's just my thoughts
I'm thinking that when he revved it that high, it was hitting a harmonic frequency, which was REALLY layin into the crank. I've heard of H23 VTEC's runnin to 7400-7600 daily, and lasting a good while. But Satan's revved to 8k-8.5k, if i remember correctly. I think that there's a harmonic frequency that comes in at ~8k somewhere and shakes the hell outta the crank....but that's just my thoughts
10-14-2003, 09:55 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (LudeyKrus)
Finaly, A topic of some serious interest has been brought to everyones attention... Ive seen H23 VTEC's run for as long as 5 years (and the thing is still running strong)... This was Jeffs old motor, Completely stock balanced and rebuilt H23 Bottom end, Completely stock H22 head reving to 7800 all day and has never had a problem... ran 13.1 in a EG hatch and put down 186 WHP COMPLETELY STOCK!
The crank has always been suspect but if done right I believe it can be extremely reliable... Balance it for sure as well as the rest of the rotating assembley down to the clutch... Crio treat it... Crio the bearings, rods, rod bolts, pistons and rings... All this costs quite a bit more than just throwing it together but the added assurance you will get is worthit IMO...
Also, This is not a B18C5 and shouldnt be rev'd out as if it were, if your going to build this motor take into consideration that this motor is going to peak at around 7000-7200 rpm and wont really require more than 7800... Of course your going to have to select a cam that is right for that type of set up... Cams with alot of duration wont really be much of a help to you seeing that will will require a decent amount of rpm to see their full potential... A cam such as the Crower 3's need to see somewhere around 8200-8600 to reach their full potebtial... A cam with alot of lift will be needed, your motor will be generating piston speeds at a much higher rate and will need lift to to accomidate to that... A decent cam for that would be... 12.2mm lift, 282 duration... somewhere in that neighborhood... Were still on the subject of breathing here so the next steo will be the head... this set up will benefit greatly from headwork, anything that will contribute to better airflow (which I like to call breathin) is going to make the motor happy... IM, I know theres almost no aftermarket support for IM's for the prelude but in the coming months there will be quite a few that will work well with this set up... a good IM is going to make a huge difference... TB as well, not as big a difference as an IM but ever little bit helps...
Well, thats my $.08 on this topic
Modified by RS_H22 at 11:37 PM 10/14/2003
The crank has always been suspect but if done right I believe it can be extremely reliable... Balance it for sure as well as the rest of the rotating assembley down to the clutch... Crio treat it... Crio the bearings, rods, rod bolts, pistons and rings... All this costs quite a bit more than just throwing it together but the added assurance you will get is worthit IMO...
Also, This is not a B18C5 and shouldnt be rev'd out as if it were, if your going to build this motor take into consideration that this motor is going to peak at around 7000-7200 rpm and wont really require more than 7800... Of course your going to have to select a cam that is right for that type of set up... Cams with alot of duration wont really be much of a help to you seeing that will will require a decent amount of rpm to see their full potential... A cam such as the Crower 3's need to see somewhere around 8200-8600 to reach their full potebtial... A cam with alot of lift will be needed, your motor will be generating piston speeds at a much higher rate and will need lift to to accomidate to that... A decent cam for that would be... 12.2mm lift, 282 duration... somewhere in that neighborhood... Were still on the subject of breathing here so the next steo will be the head... this set up will benefit greatly from headwork, anything that will contribute to better airflow (which I like to call breathin) is going to make the motor happy... IM, I know theres almost no aftermarket support for IM's for the prelude but in the coming months there will be quite a few that will work well with this set up... a good IM is going to make a huge difference... TB as well, not as big a difference as an IM but ever little bit helps...
Well, thats my $.08 on this topic
Modified by RS_H22 at 11:37 PM 10/14/2003
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10-15-2003, 10:53 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (aklucsarits)
Did you compare the differences in the offsets of the rod journals to the main journals? More material (greater offset) on the H23?
10-15-2003, 03:05 PM
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Re: (19924ws)
So would the amount of power on the crank, say a h23 turbo..... have no bearing on the longevity or the robustness of the crank as long as i dont rev to 7500+?
You are saying the high revs is what kills the h23 crank no the load/power?
You are saying the high revs is what kills the h23 crank no the load/power?
10-15-2003, 03:40 PM
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Re: (MordecaiPSI)
I've seen VERY high HP H23's; low-rev power is not nearly as hard on the crank as revving high. The off-balance crank comes under MUCH more stress, almost exponentially higher as the rev's increase, I think.
10-15-2003, 10:40 PM
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Re: (MordecaiPSI)
also,if you notice too,the h22 crank has some more overlap between the main and rod journals since its a shorter stroke crank.Thats helps with strenght also.Also,ive been told before that you'd want bigger counter weights on a higher reving engine.Whether its tru or not,i have also been told that the integra type r crank has bigger counterweights than the regular gsr crank.Comptech told me this,so i would assume it would be true even though i have never seen both side by side....
Also,comptech also mentioned to me that the h23 crank is forged also,just not as well balanced as the h22 crank.
Also,comptech also mentioned to me that the h23 crank is forged also,just not as well balanced as the h22 crank.
10-16-2003, 04:52 AM
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Re: (19924ws)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 19924ws »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Crank counterweights are also drilled to balance, not always shaved or cut.</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but I don't see any drill marks on either crank; i'll check again after school though.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22Si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you compare the differences in the offsets of the rod journals to the main journals? More material (greater offset) on the H23?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not yet, but I do have my camera back (stupid Eckerds!
) so I'll be snappin away later; I'll take lotsa good pics to show you guys; any preferred angles or anything, before I take them?
True, but I don't see any drill marks on either crank; i'll check again after school though.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22Si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you compare the differences in the offsets of the rod journals to the main journals? More material (greater offset) on the H23?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not yet, but I do have my camera back (stupid Eckerds!
) so I'll be snappin away later; I'll take lotsa good pics to show you guys; any preferred angles or anything, before I take them?
10-16-2003, 08:56 AM
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Re: (LudeyKrus)
Awesome thread by the way
No prefrences here, you'll prob have it covered pretty well considering how indepthly you're going about this thus far. The only suggestion I can think of is be sure to get the areas your snapping WELL lit.
No prefrences here, you'll prob have it covered pretty well considering how indepthly you're going about this thus far. The only suggestion I can think of is be sure to get the areas your snapping WELL lit.
10-16-2003, 07:17 PM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (LudeyKrus)
just food for thought, but perhaps the h23 is so bad at high revs and high milage, as you guys say, because it uses the same rods and has the same stroke as the older b20/b21 motors - the bastard motors of honda, as everyone seems to call them. the h22 was a new design and supports vtec, which is made for high revs. perhaps the similarities between the h23 and the b20 is where the problem lies.
10-16-2003, 09:52 PM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (hatchblack)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hatchblack »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just food for thought, but perhaps the h23 is so bad at high revs and high milage, as you guys say, because it uses the same rods and has the same stroke as the older b20/b21 motors - the bastard motors of honda, as everyone seems to call them. the h22 was a new design and supports vtec, which is made for high revs. perhaps the similarities between the h23 and the b20 is where the problem lies.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The H23 crank is the same as the F22 crank which was used mass market in accords for 5-6 years as well. I don't know of any crazy problems. Just don't rev it like it's a VTEC
The H23 crank is the same as the F22 crank which was used mass market in accords for 5-6 years as well. I don't know of any crazy problems. Just don't rev it like it's a VTEC
10-16-2003, 10:55 PM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The H23 crank is the same as the F22 crank which was used mass market in accords for 5-6 years as well. I don't know of any crazy problems. Just don't rev it like it's a VTEC </TD></TR></TABLE>
i guess mine should be dying eventually... 182k miles on it
The H23 crank is the same as the F22 crank which was used mass market in accords for 5-6 years as well. I don't know of any crazy problems. Just don't rev it like it's a VTEC </TD></TR></TABLE>
i guess mine should be dying eventually... 182k miles on it
10-17-2003, 04:55 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (RS_H22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS_H22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The crank has always been suspect but if done right I believe it can be extremely reliable... Balance it for sure as well as the rest of the rotating assembley down to the clutch... Crio treat it... Crio the bearings, rods, rod bolts, pistons and rings... All this costs quite a bit more than just throwing it together but the added assurance you will get is worthit IMO...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I plan to get my motor built by someone, for example GE. Do you think they can cryo treat those elements for me before assembling the motor ? Is shotpeening + cryo treatment a viable option ?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS_H22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A cam with alot of lift will be needed, your motor will be generating piston speeds at a much higher rate and will need lift to to accomidate to that... A decent cam for that would be... 12.2mm lift, 282 duration... somewhere in that neighborhood... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes thats what i was thinking exactly, are there any aftermarket (or OEM) cams that are near those specs ?
The crank has always been suspect but if done right I believe it can be extremely reliable... Balance it for sure as well as the rest of the rotating assembley down to the clutch... Crio treat it... Crio the bearings, rods, rod bolts, pistons and rings... All this costs quite a bit more than just throwing it together but the added assurance you will get is worthit IMO...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I plan to get my motor built by someone, for example GE. Do you think they can cryo treat those elements for me before assembling the motor ? Is shotpeening + cryo treatment a viable option ?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS_H22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A cam with alot of lift will be needed, your motor will be generating piston speeds at a much higher rate and will need lift to to accomidate to that... A decent cam for that would be... 12.2mm lift, 282 duration... somewhere in that neighborhood... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes thats what i was thinking exactly, are there any aftermarket (or OEM) cams that are near those specs ?
10-17-2003, 08:14 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (Jesus_FR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jesus_FR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes thats what i was thinking exactly, are there any aftermarket (or OEM) cams that are near those specs ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
We are working on bringing a cam out specificly for the H23 VTEC motor... We should be finishing up B series cams fairly soon. Once the B series cam testing is complete we will begin on the H motors... We will have 1 set of cams for the H23 VTEC and 2 sets for the H22... All will be for NA aplications.
All IB Spec H Series VTEC cams will retail for $730
Edit: lol, Something I just now noticed... I have down in a previous post that I recomend a cam with 12.2mm lift and 282 duration... that was a typo... I meant to type 262 duration (trying to type in the dark while the GF is asleep)... We are actually going to be making the H23 cam somewhere in the 12.0-12.2/262 range for the H23 VTEC... We should be testing within the next few weeks.
Modified by RS_H22 at 5:52 PM 10/17/2003
Yes thats what i was thinking exactly, are there any aftermarket (or OEM) cams that are near those specs ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
We are working on bringing a cam out specificly for the H23 VTEC motor... We should be finishing up B series cams fairly soon. Once the B series cam testing is complete we will begin on the H motors... We will have 1 set of cams for the H23 VTEC and 2 sets for the H22... All will be for NA aplications.
All IB Spec H Series VTEC cams will retail for $730
Edit: lol, Something I just now noticed... I have down in a previous post that I recomend a cam with 12.2mm lift and 282 duration... that was a typo... I meant to type 262 duration (trying to type in the dark while the GF is asleep
)... We are actually going to be making the H23 cam somewhere in the 12.0-12.2/262 range for the H23 VTEC... We should be testing within the next few weeks.Modified by RS_H22 at 5:52 PM 10/17/2003
10-17-2003, 09:51 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (H22Si)
The ramp rates are going to be somewhat similar to those of the JUN cams... We are going to be testing several configurations soon and will have more info during that time.
10-17-2003, 11:51 AM
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Re: H23 Crank vs. H22 Crank - The Truth Comes Out... (H22Si)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22Si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is there anything special about the ramp rates of the cams?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i thought this post was about cranks not cams
i thought this post was about cranks not cams