FYI: quick budget rule of thumb

[SJR]

In my ongoing process of introspection and trying to decide whether to continue my indulging in the GFCP, or to quit cold turkey, I have been doing some research on budgeting... the search feature was mildly useful. I have come to this (highly scientific) conclusion: If anyone asks you, a good rule of thumb on the costs of racing/HPDE, use this: - HPDE will cost about $500 per weekend - w2w racing will cost about $1000 per weekend. and that does NOT include startup cost, tow rig, or major car breakage. This is just the normal, expected running cost of racing (entry fees, wear items, gas, food, lodging, minor maintenance items and/or small parts breaking, etc.) Useful quick rule of thumb, I think. BTW: that means I REALLY can't afford to race...

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[Mike_C]

HPDE only costs $500 a weekend if you pay the full price. Work a weekend or two and the costs are drastically reduced.

2 weeks ago my weekend cost me $20 for oil and filter, $30 in gas, and a few bucks for food as well.

In all I spent around $60.

Of course I did have to upgrade my pads ($50), brake fluid ($10), and change my t-belt and water pump ($110), but those are things that needed to be done anyway.

Since it is hard to afford to drive every available weekend, you might as well head out to work, save money, learn the course, learn the rules, and meet new people

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by JMU1337

Work a weekend or two and the costs are drastically reduced.

This statement is only true if your time has no value - or if that value is relatively low.

[Evan55]

Originally Posted by JeffS

This statement is only true if your time has no value - or if that value is relatively low.

very true if you price out the money your are saving versus the time you work flagging and come up with an hourly rate. But you would be better off getting a part time job if you look at it that way.
Flagging is actually pretty enjoyable way to spend a weekend.

[Mike_C]

what he said...

[Mike_C]

anyway, i feel your estimates are pretty close.

[SJR]

right, and that's all I wanted to put out there. I have seen several posts in the past, where poeple ask: "just how much does it cost to race? I know it's expensive, but I don't know how expensive it really is..."
So, from searching throught the threads, and seeing what most people are admitting to spending, it looks like about $1000 per weekend of racing is a good place to start when trying to draw a budget. You can then add more money for a major breakage, or crash, and that will be very car-dependent. Ditto for tow rig and expenses.
It thought it might be useful to someone, if not, that thread will die its natural quick death. it's all good.

[Knestis]

When I ran a VERY cheap IT car a bunch of years ago, I actually amortized all of the costs associated with it - and I drove it to the race track so didn't include the cost of my van...

Total over the life of the project (including the tiny amount of $$ recouped when I sold it with the blowed up motor) was $2500 per race weekend.

Put that in your GFCP and smoke it.

Kirk

[phat-S]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and that does NOT include startup cost, tow rig, or major car breakage. This is just the normal, expected running cost of racing (entry fees, wear items, gas, food, lodging, minor maintenance items and/or small parts breaking, etc.) Useful quick rule of thumb, I think</TD></TR></TABLE>

Startup costs smartup costs, what's the difference, rod bearings before you ever race the car or after your 2nd season, ECU and dyno time before you get your license or 5 races into it after you get that FPR? And as for expected running costs, heh, now THAT my friend is funny. Expect that it will all be replaced eventually

I think Kirk's number is a whole lot more realistic than the 1000 dollar figure - remember, its not what you write a check for and pay out of pocket THIS weekend to race - its what it costs to race a weekend and I'd say that on average, in IT, its plenty expensive over the long haul.

[Def]

Speaking of money , are Sprint Karts(not shifter karts) considerably cheaper to race with? I hear alot of people recommending Sprint Karts for someone looking to get started racing since they are

1. Cheaper in initial outlay and ongoing operational costs
2. Arguably let you learn more than racing a door slammer early on

Any thoughts on this?

[Catch 22]

Well, if we're comparing racing to HPDE... here's my take.

First... throw out the cost of the car because you need a car to do both. If you throw the cost of your $20000 daily driver into your per weekend HPDE costs, it gets to be a pretty big number.
Now, if you want to include those numbers, then that $6000 H5 Civic looks pretty good compared to the $25000 HPDE Type R.

But, just on a per weekend race vs. HPDE scale, the costs depend mainly on what type of car you drive. What I'm suggesting is that you could RACE an H5 Civic for about the same per weekend cost as HPDEing a '96 Integra GSR.

I can break it down if you want, but common sense tells you that a slower/lighter car will carry less operating costs than a heavier/faster one. Even if you're only HPDEing the heavier/faster one.

And yes, racing the slower car is exponetially more thrilling than HPDEing the faster one. Yes, I am qualified to make that statement having done both.

[Catch 22]

Oh... my per weekend costs in the ITC car have so far been about $700 for double race events. This includes everything (travel, hotel, entry fee, tires, brakes, gas). This is about $200 per weekend less than the Integra based solely on the amount of consumables the Integra munched (mostly tires, brake pads, and gas).

[Apocalypse]

Originally Posted by Catch 22

I can break it down if you want, but common sense tells you that a slower/lighter car will carry less operating costs than a heavier/faster one. Even if you're only HPDEing the heavier/faster one.

What about a slower/heavier car? We're just screwed.

[krshultz]

Non-inclusive of things like wear on the car, upgrades to the car, and the like (as in, not amortizing the overall picture like Kirk did), I spend about $1000 for a race weekend.

- 200-300 entry fee
- between 50 and 200 in hotel costs (depends if you're paying your crew members' way, and you should)
- $100 in incidentals. Blew up alternator on tow vehicle...tire on trailer...whatever. It always happens.
- $250-400 in tires. 400 if you're using Hoosiers...800 per set of four after monted/balanced, and they're trash after two weekends
- At least 50 in food/drink, usually closer to $100
- $50 or so worth of brake system wear

The bare minimum is $800 for a race weekend. This doesn't include the $500 you just spent to get the shocks revalved, or the $70 worth of tools bought to work on the car, or the "Surprise, you need new axles / tie rod ends / hubs / whatever" expenses. So yeah, about a grand to race is on target.

Depressing, no?

[SJR]

thanks for all the comments. This seems to bear out my rough estimate. So...
if you want to race a 8 weekend season, you can budget about $8000 that you will spend for sure. Then, you should probably tack on another couple of grand for breakage, and at that point know that a major crash will probably end your season.

Result: 1 year of racing a GSR = $10,000.
and, according to Scott's experience, 1 year of tracking an ITC (H4, H5) Civic = $6600 (8 * $700 + $1000 - cheaper parts for civic)

Pretty big difference. Now, startup costs are another thing altogether and will vary a LOT from individual to individual. You can tow with anything from a Caprice to a dually turbo diesel. You can spend as little as $1500 on a trailer and as much as (sky's the limit). Etc, etc.

Hmmm. Good food for thought. I was considering at one time laying off the track for a couple of years and spending that time to slowly finish transforming the ol' teg into a race kaar. But cooler heads have given me the true costs of racing the teg. So, off I go to look for the absolute cheapest car to race. GTI cup? One consideration is that I believe the local SCCA (oh no! that S-word again) has an entire racing season at Summit. Nice and close to home, and Scott's favorite track to boot! It would make it cheaper and easier to only have to drive an hour each way. But then you lose the fun of trying different tracks.
Decisions, decisions. And Karl was admiring my decisiveness last week. I am just a flake after all!

[Crack Monkey]

My two seasons of racing the SRX-7 cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $25,000. That includes everything - car, trailer, tow vehicle, safety gear, consumables, entry fees. Of course, this was with the cheapest race car possible (short of buying a tired ITB/ITC car), the cheapest tow vehicle possible ('89 Caprice for $3000) and a used trailer ($1000).

I entred about 10 races and 10 test days (or HPDEs) in that period of time. That makes my weekend cost somewhere between $1250 and $2500 - some of the test days were Friday prior to races, so depends if they are counted as same weekend as race or as a seperate event.

[Catch 22]

Karl is also undercutting the braking costs on the Integra. Or maybe he's just alot easier on brakes than I was?

I could easily KILL a set of front pads and rotors in one double race weekend at CMP and Summit. Thats... oh... about $200 worth of components for one weekend (not including fluid and melted ball joint/tie rod boots also not including the time value of having to rebuild brakes after every weekend).
VIR, Lowes, Road Atlanta... I could get two weekends at those places. Better, but not much.

Brake wear on the Civic... Damned near non-existent. First of all, you have alot less weight to slow down from a slower speed. Second... you dont brake as much, sometimes you dont brake at all.

Compare my braking points in the two cars going into turn 1 at Roebling Road... In the Integra I was hard on the binders just inside the #3 marker. In the Civic its a left foot drag inside the #1 marker (which takes some working up to BTW).

[Apocalypse]

Why are the brakes on an Integra so horrificly easy to wear? It certainly can't be a weight issue because I probably go through 2 sets of front pads and MAYBE a set of rotors in a season and my car is much heavier than any Honda. Granted, I'm moving slower at the entrance of any given braking zone but I'm also carrying more wight, which means the energy to dissipate is probably similar. Even our front runners, who brake harder but probably less often, don't burn pads and rotors like an Integra.

[SJR]

I suspect the 944 (that's what you drive, right?) rotors are a big bigger. The GSR's rotors seem to be a wee undersized for the track demands. And that's why the Type Rs have bigger front disks...

[Catch 22]

My GSR - 170hp, 2625lbs, Civic Brakes.

That equals alot of brake wear.

[Solracer]

Ask Todd Reid about his v6 probe... 5 laps... needs new pads.... Big heavye car... litttle Escort Brakes... doh!

[AKADriver]

Thinking about cheap classes... I think my eventual entry into the world of w2w will be if the WDC SCCA picks up Spec Neon for the races you mentioned (MARRS). Word has it that they might if they can get at least 3 cars for 50% of the events. You don't know how inexpensive car parts can be until you've owned a Neon. It really cuts down the cost of racing when a clean junkyard motor can cost $60.

[SJR]

funny you should say that. My wife had a neon,bought new. Hated that ****ing car SO bad. In three years and maybe 20000 miles, it blew a head gasket, destroyed a catalytic converter, and had a myriad little things go wrong. Thanks to that car, I will NEVER EVER buy another Chrysler product. Ever.

[Crack Monkey]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

Thinking about cheap classes... I think my eventual entry into the world of w2w will be if the WDC SCCA picks up Spec Neon for the races you mentioned (MARRS). Word has it that they might if they can get at least 3 cars for 50% of the events. You don't know how inexpensive car parts can be until you've owned a Neon. It really cuts down the cost of racing when a clean junkyard motor can cost $60.

I seriously doubt WDCR will consider another spec class for the MARRS series. They already have SRX-7 and Spec Miata. Getting them to pick up Spec Miata was an uphill battle.

[AKADriver]

This is just what I heard on the Spec Neon board. It is mostly wishful thinking anyway, though.

Sorry you had such a bad experience with the car, SJR - I bought a '95 DOHC Sport for dirt cheap, flogged it for two years and loved every minute. It broke, but it was so cheap to fix I didn't care. Now based on that experience I have a wealth of knowledge and contacts about the 1st gen Neon and no place to apply them.