gamer4lif

Goal: Cheap N/A power. Ideally using OEM components which can be sourced used for very cheap & without sleeving the block if possible.
Found: awesome combo, good for any kind of build.


Note that this would only work without modification to the block on an H22A4, otherwise you'd have to have the crank mains ground to 50mm.
(if you can even do that? I'd assume you can. It seems like a relatively simple process to machine...?)

K24 CrankK20 RodsPrevious displacement: 2157 (H22)
NEW displacement: 2354 cc (same as K24)
9.1% increase

This yields a R/S Ratio of 1.4:1.
For comparison,
H23 (Vtec or not): 1.46:1
K24: 1.54:1
Stock H22: 1.58:1
K20: 1.62:1
F20B: 1.65:1
"ideal": 1.75:1

However, at the end of the day, not a very important number in terms of raw power, mostly useful for "rev-ability", hence lower redline on H23. On a street motor, Low end torque is going to be more fun/useful than high end horsepower. If you're building a race motor. Consider the "destroker" at the end of this post.

Please don't argue R/S in this thread.
Any time you stroke a motor without increasing deck height, rod to stroke will be "worse". More low end torque due to increased displacement and LOWER R/S.

Piston choices:
All compression ratios calculated with an OEM 3-layer 0.026 in/0.66 mm headgasket w/ 87 mm bore.
Assume stock deck height (h22), stock combustion chamber volume (H22)(53.8 cc)


H22 Pistons (all motor)H23 Pistons (Turbo? dunno figured it was worth comparing haha)K24 Pistons (Sleeved block/Turbo)Total Cost BRAND NEW from HONDA w/ all bearings and USDM H22 Pistons:
PISTON SET (STD) $186.80
RING SET (STD) $135.80
BEARINGS, MAIN (LOWER) $10.05
BEARINGS, MAIN (UPPER) $46.35
BEARINGS, CR $44.75
CRANKSHAFT $227.29
RODS, CONNECTING $313.60
TOTAL $1,031.32 including shipping


The other way around....
So I take it your the kind of person who likes to rev their stock H22 to 9k? Here's your destroker using stock parts. (with the right aftermarket parts, this could easily be a 10k+ monster with the right cams & attention to detail)
Assuming N/A & high compression.

F20C CrankCustom K24 RodsPrevious displacement: 2157 (H22)
NEW displacement: 1997 ccThis yields a R/S Ratio of 1.81:1.

Wiseco K568M87 Pistons for K24 (Advertised 10.2 CR w/ K20 head)
CCs: -9
CR: 13.5:1

Wiseco K622M87 (Advertised 8.8 CR w/ K20 head)
CCs: -21
CR: 10.6:1

Pistons will stick .177 in out of the hole. Choose HG/head machining accordingly.

Sources:Anyone wanna chime in on the feasibility this?

Rude Awakening

That destroker sounds awesome, but if anyone was going to do that, they should still consider the F20B, just because of the FRM in the H22. I would love to have a rod ratio better than a B16, but ****ing H22 eventual oil burning FRM/rings bullshit mean it's out.

gamer4lif

You'd have to have a sleeved block for the destroker. K24 pistons have a lower compression height (30 vs. 31 or 30.5) and that's the only way to get the piston to a reasonable deck clearance. Or custom pistons.. but that would require a sleeved block as well. It would be a very nice motor if constructed properly, but as RPM increases, stress increases.. so you'd have to carefully select the components in order to make the most of the shorter stroke..

PirateMcFred

It's not at all a bad idea. Only things are that you'll have to lengthen the K24 snout to get it to clear the timing cover and line up on existing accessories. You'll also have to machine some sort of oil pump adapter to use the H-series oil pump. Then with such a long stroke you might have to notch the bottom of the cylinders to clear the rod. Otherwise it's an inexpensive alternative to a billet crank. BTW if you've got the scratch for custom pistons ayou can offset grind a k24 crank to ~105mm if you want to use stock F23 rods.


F23 crank

k24 crank

gamer4lif

ahhh. Thanks. Thats what I was looking for. Thats the one area I wasn't sure would work, the crank. Now to figure out what would be entailed to make it work... could make the whole thing not worth it at all.

gamer4lif

anybody have dimensions on either the K24 or H22 crank snout/nose/whatever you want to call it?
Need:
Diameter
Length of each diameter

jlude90

User Rosko does, he's done/is doing this. InlinePRO I believe has some information on this as well. It is a a good idea, but I think it might be easier to offset grind the F23 crank to 100 then it would be to make the timing end of a K crank work.

The H23VTEC has the ease of 100% drop-in ability, with zero extra work.

And FYI enlarging to a 55mm main block is nowhere near worth it. Rosko did this and he said it was a bear, and he did the actual machine work. The AL block is softer than the steel main caps, so your bore will want to walk up. And you also have to machine the thrust washer spot in as well.

The K crank is a good idea though, we just need definitive answers on the timing side.

gamer4lif

Yeah, if I could get those dimensions..

PirateMcFred

Offset grinding an F23 crank gets more expensive though as the crank pin is already 45mm as opposed to K20A, K24, H22A, and H23A 48mm journals. So unless you found some custom long D-series rods for cheap you'd have to weld the journals bigger or spend another ~$700 for rods after the crank's done.

With regards to boring 55mm mains on older blocks, where I work you could wire EDM the main journals to 55mm and not have to worry about tool deflection. Only thing though is that I don't think the tank is deep enough. Maybe with some modiication... In general it would probably be an PITA.

I have pics but no dimensions. Sorry. The oil pump bit will be the trickiest part to accomplish without welding. The timing junk would not be an issue for anyone with access to a lathe: just make a 22mm washer to extend the crank snout and recut a crank pulley bolt. Maybe, an hour and a half assuming you have the material.

-P

gamer4lif

Okay, so has to be done on an H22A4. I'm trying to find the dimensions on the nose ends, as that seems to be the only real roadblock.

gamer4lif

Kinda like what is done here: http://www.blackbmw.net/index.php?op...tion&Itemid=56
Cept with honda stuff haha

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

Even wire EDM would be tricky. Since the block is aluminum and the caps are steel you'd have to switch power settings on the EDM when you transitioned from one material to the other. I don't know if you could do that mid cut but it could be done in segments. And don't think that a wire EDM can't deflect haha, especially when the heads would be so far apart. You'd also still have to cut the bearing tang reliefs and the thrust washers.

BTW, you've got me thinking on the 105mm stroke. Wonder what Castillos would charge to do something like that??

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

Just grab an H22 crank and measure, you are on the right track. I've got all the info you'd need but forgive me if I don't post/share it. I've spent alot of time thinking out the setup and that info isnt something I want to just post online for everyone to see. Keep at it tho, if you got the skillz you can make it happen.

gamer4lif

Haha, maybe when I go to rebuild my transmission next week I'll pull the timing cover off and take a look see. I've got an idea of how to do it. Considering I'm not going to do this for a while, I'll send you a PM with some of the details. I figure it's better to be helpful rather than competitive. Seems like most other people think this is a "useless" or more work than an H23Vtec. Seems the opposite to me. K rods and cranks from the factory are much better than F23/h23 ****.
Plus you can order it all brand new from honda for cheap.

jlude90

It isn't useless at all, and if I were smarter/had the means its an avenue I would pursue. Its just nowhere near as easy as the H23VTEC, like i said, that is a 100% drop-in which is why it will always be more popular.

PirateMcFred

You bring up valid points. you could incorporate a small chamfer in the corners for a dead spot to change the current between materials. I really only brought the idea up as it might be less likely to cut the journals out of parallel/cylindricity than a huge boring bar 14 inches from the spindle.

You know you want a 105mm crank! I know I do (though I'd retain the balance shafts on the daily driver.). It seems that it would be a pretty simple job to offset grind the existing K24 journals 3mm off to one side and re-balance it. There's a million things that can be done too though. chamfer the oil holes, nitride the crank, heat treat, knife edge, polish. I'm sure that Castillos would let you spend as much as you like.

-P

gamer4lif

Eh, only difference here is a few things with the nose end of the crank. Other than that it IS a drop in thing haha at least so far as I know/can tell so far.

jlude90

Dude thats like saying H2B is a drop-in affair. Sure, you don't have to weld any mounts, but its not near as easy as dumping a B motor in a civic.

The crank will physically sit in there, yes, but you have to do more work to get it to work.

gamer4lif

Eh. I look at car stuff as more of a challenge to make things happen, rather than "work". In all honesty if you really want to do something you can do anything you want with a car/motor/whatever. Just takes understanding how it's designed to work and what you need to do to make it do what you want.
But yeah I realize it isn't as easy as an F23 crank... but from what i've seen that combo isn't actually all that impressive in terms of additional power.

NirVTEC

Compared to what?......The extra 2mm from the 99mm would provide similar improvements compared to using the 97mm over the 95mm. *EDIT* I was going to mention r/s ratio

I have seen some very impressive #'s from the 97mm with as little as stock USDM pistons and a great header.
See SSR F23 setup circa 2007
250whp with leftover OEM parts and their header(IIRC)
Blox cams (iirc)

gamer4lif

Well for example, a stock H22a vtec is rated at 220hp. (i know its a dumb figure to compare, but i'm too lazy to look up **** right now)
Since that's crank HP, that's possible without even cracking open the block.
Don't know that this set up will necessary be "better", but in general, more displacement = more potential power.
Plus from what little I've looked into that, F23/H23's have issues with throwing bearings. Although that could have just been some random place I read that and has nothing to do with the crank itself.
Also, you're kind of limited when it comes to pistons to use in the "home made" H23Vtec because H22 CH is 31 mm and H23 CH is 30.5, that's why stock H22 pistons are out of the block. Suppose the same K series pistons would work, but if you're going to go through all that trouble, the "easiness" of the H23VTEC isn't really an advantage.

gamer4lif

Just for ***** and giggles, BC 100MM stroker kit will set you with 1.43 r/s.

PirateMcFred

I've not heard of any bearing issues in F23s. H23 yes, but not F23. Please cite examples.

gamer4lif

Like I said, I have never really been very interested in the H23 lower end swap, so just remember vaguely seeing something somewhere... could definitely be wrong. I personally have never looked into that swap very thoroughly

rwmotorsports

This was an excellent post by the OP. I just might have to consider the destroker route, seems like it would be quite a mean little motor, and luckily I have the attention to detail to do it! :D