Problems with Porterfield Brake Pads?

[FormulaIntegra]

Has anyone else had issues with Porterfield R-4 pads not lasting very long? At my last double regional this last weekend, with a brand new set of pads, brand new Valuecraft rotors, braided brake lines, and a new remanufactured master cylinder, as well as more than adequate 2.5" brake cooling ducts, the pads just destroyed themselves, ultimately resulting in a catastrophic failure and me going nose first into a tire wall at 40mph while leading the race. The right front wore completely down to the backing plate 10 laps into the 13 lap race on Sunday, and allowed the piston to come out far enough that it blew the seal and I lost all brake pressure as fluid poured out of the caliper. I had bled the system between qualy and the race, and know I had enough pad to last the race, but they still seemed to be wearing much quicker than I'm used to. It's the second event in a row that this has happened, where a new set of pads isn't even lasting a full weekend. When I started racing back in 2005, I could get 2 sets of pads to last the entire season. I know I'm much faster now, and pushing the limits of the car more than ever, but I should think I should be able to get a set of pads to last two 15 minute practices, two 20 minute qualifying sessions, and two 30 minute races. I've always bedded the pads and rotors properly, as well. It's a 95 Civic EX Coupe in full ITA trim, about 2350lbs with driver, probably pushing 130-135whp, and this was at Buttonwillow Raceway in Bakersfield, CA. I have another set of new Porterfield pads, but coupled with the bodywork I need to do to the car (front fenders, bumper cover, hood, and radiator support need to be replaced) I'm not so sure I want to take the chance with this brand anymore. I find it hard to believe that a company with a name and history like Porterfield's can't make a pad that will last a weekend (at $180 a set?????) I already know what other brands are out there, so I'm not really looking for advice on who else to try, but I do know that Porterfield's aren't mentioned around here nearly as much as Carbotech XP10's, Hawk Blues, Cobalt XR3's, or Performance Friction Z series, and I'm wondering what kind of experiences Honda peoples have had with the R-4's. I'm a very aggressive driver, but I would like a set of pads that will comfortably last me no less than 2 double regional weekends (preferably 3) with still enough meat on them that I could use them as backups for a single session after that. Anyone have any opinions or experience with the R-4's?

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[dirty19]

Wow, one new set not lasting a whole weekend?
Either those pads are complete crap..errrrr naw they have to be complete crap.
I have never heard of a pad that eats itself in a car only making 130 hp.
Do you have any pics?

[FerreiraCompetitions]

What caliper are you using in your setup. Its really a bad engineering design that the piston falls of the seal before the pad is to the backing plate. Either that or you are using discs that are way too thin.

On the subject of the pads not lasting, that seems excessive and hard to belive actually, but if that's the wear rates you have been getting with that pad then you're need to see what temps are the discs getting to. I know that the R4's last more than that so there must be an explanation.

If you're looking for a pad to last the whole season, I think Performance Friction and Pagid are really the only good choices as they have the best endurance compounds in the pro field.

[Stinkycheezmonky]

How old are the calipers? Is there a chance the piston was sticking and causing the pad to be in constant contact with the rotor?

[EdoMoto]

Switch to cobalt. try the XR3. On my car i was running XR2 which was hevier.



Edo

[FormulaIntegra]

The calipers are "new" OEM remanufactured ones from Pep Boys. This exact same thing (destroyed new pads) happened at the beginning of September, so they are 2 months old. The rotors are the same one's everyone else is using: Valuecraft 10.2" blanks from Autozone, and these were brand new, too, bought at the same time as the calipers.

I assumed back in September when it happened, it had something to do with the fact that I was using used rotors that had been turned (which I will never do again), and some of my brake ducting had collapsed, so everything was running way too hot.

This time, like I said, everything except the hard brake plumbing and brake booster had been replaced with new or remanufactured replacements.

It appears that when it gets down to the backing plate on the rotor, it heats up so much it bends the plate back around the piston, and that allows enough clearance for the piston to cock in the cylinder, allowing the fluid to escape. There were flames (again).

A Spec 944 racer at the track told me he heard that a bad batch of pads came out of Porterfield at one time. I wonder if not enough Honda guys use them to have gotten through the bad batch. I plan on calling them and seeing what kind of information they have. I was hoping to get some info from smart people here before calling them.

Either way, I think I am planning on switching pads anyways. Several very experienced people have suggested trying the Cobalt XR3's.

[chad]

Get a REAL PAD....R4's aren't exactly a race pad. they were the first aggressive pad i used i my street car back in 2000...

[adrian1281]

What does the left front pad look like? That might isolate the problem better...

[Autocratic]

With everything the Formula said, I really think it's time for a different pad.

The R4 really isn't a true race pad, IMO. It's only a small step above the R4S.

I've used the R4 on the rear of my car (1997 Jetta 2700lb) and they've lasted forever. There isn't much rear brake bias on my car, so using a stronger pad helped me keep the rear-end in check. This was my experience when moving from the R4S in the rear.

You should look into the Hawk HT line, specifically the HT10 to start with.

Make sure to do a proper bed-in and test them out.

Testing (and wrecking, unfortunately) is part of racing. The more seat time you get, the faster you should be getting, and certain parts you can only push so fast.

Originally Posted by chad

Get a REAL PAD....R4's aren't exactly a race pad. they were the first aggressive pad i used i my street car back in 2000...

[descartesfool]

If you want some real race pads that last, look no further than Pagid RS29 Yellows endurance pads. Expensive and you get what you pay for. I am running those and Hawk DTC-60's, which are also excellent. I have never run R4's, so no comment. I have run XP8's, XP10's and XP12's. If you want pads that brake well and wear quickly, buy those from Carbotech. No more of those for me. Never run pads down to the backing plate. That overheats the fluid due to heat from the rotor getting through the backing plate to the piston and then to the fluid. And as you found, can lead to catastrophic results. Plus pad material will overheat and start to wear very quickly when it gets to thin.

[FerreiraCompetitions]

Originally Posted by descartesfool

If you want some real race pads that last, look no further than Pagid RS29 Yellows endurance pads. Expensive and you get what you pay for. I am running those and Hawk DTC-60's, which are also excellent. I have never run R4's, so no comment. I have run XP8's, XP10's and XP12's. If you want pads that brake well and wear quickly, buy those from Carbotech. No more of those for me. Never run pads down to the backing plate. That overheats the fluid due to heat from the rotor getting through the backing plate to the piston and then to the fluid. And as you found, can lead to catastrophic results. Plus pad material will overheat and start to wear very quickly when it gets to thin.

The man here is pretty much on the money, except when comparing the Pagid to the Hawk.

I've run and tested pretty much everything that is available on the market over the years and when it comes to these things, you get what you pay for. That being said, investing in a pro product with world renowned reputation like Pagid, Performance Friction, Carbone Lorraine, or even Ferodo will get you in awe, and whishing you had never spent money on the club level product from the other companies just to save a few bucks.

You also need to know what you want from your brakes, high initial bite is not always a good thing, torque rise, or flat torque, release, and modulation, compressiveness, and consistency with temp are just a few of the things you should look for when talking to a brake company's engineer to get help in deciding what best suits you.

If I were you I would call all of those companies and talk to them, you will learn more in 5 minutes of convo than reading bolox on the forums.

Pagid - 239 540 1729
Performance Friction USA - 1800-521-8874
Carbone Lorraine USA - 864 834 7712
Ferodo/Essex - 704-824-6030

[JuanTushag]

I have been using the Porterfield R4 quite a bit. I have been getting several race weekends out of them. Usually 3 full weekends and test days!!!

I am using the porterfield pad as it has a lower grip than some others and it helps me adjust ssome bias.

If you dont mind a pad thats a little grippier, but seems to last FOREVER, go with the Willwood "C" pad. Its cheap too !!! I think you can get a set from Summit for around 75 bucks.

[FerreiraCompetitions]

Originally Posted by JuanTushag

If you dont mind a pad thats a little grippier, but seems to last FOREVER, go with the Willwood "C" pad. Its cheap too !!! I think you can get a set from Summit for around 75 bucks.

$75 should be the cost of the brake fluid, not the pads!

[Stinkycheezmonky]

Originally Posted by FerreiraCompetitions

$75 should be the cost of the brake fluid, not the pads!

We can't all be ballers

[FerreiraCompetitions]

Originally Posted by Stinkycheezmonky

We can't all be ballers

lol I was trying to make a point. Although a good set of pads for 200-250 is not being baller, its trying to get a leg up on the competition.

[nsxtasy]

I had a set of Porterfield R4-S front pads on my GS-R in which I had a similar experience at the racetrack, i.e. the pads got hot and the metal backing plate "folded" around the piston. There was still a reasonable thickness of friction material on the pads at the time.

[FormulaIntegra]

Originally Posted by FerreiraCompetitions

lol I was trying to make a point. Although a good set of pads for 200-250 is not being baller, its trying to get a leg up on the competition.

I would much rather spend 200-250 on a good set of "full race" pads that will last my aggressive driving style rather than the 500-600 it's going to cost to repair/replace the damaged front end of my car.

On that note, I had no idea that the R4's were not considered a "real" race pad. Kind of misleading when there's a picture of a Ferrari F1 car on the website, and Andy Porterfield drives an ex-Trans-Am and current GT-1 Camaro with his own pads. Of course, owning the company I'm sure has the perks of being able to change pads every session if he so chooses.

Porterfield sells Hawk Blues, too. I'm sure I can swap the new set of R4's for them, but would that be a lateral move, or a step up in durability? Otherwise, I'm leaning towards a refund, and trying either the Cobalt XR3's, Pagid yellows, or Ferodo DS3000s.

I'll try to get some pics of everything in the next couple of days. What site are you guys using as a pic hosting server, since we-todd isn't around anymore?

[Autocratic]

Personally, I wouldn't go with the Hawk Blues. Yes, the pad is proven on the track, but they dust like crazy and once it bakes onto your wheels it doesn't come off.

Hawk HT series, or any of the ones you mentioned above would be fine.

As I said before, there is alot of testing needed in racing, and finding what works best for your setup and how you drive isn't always going to be easy.

[JuanTushag]

thats part of the beauty of racing these hondas , you dont necessarily have to spend a ton of money . granted there is a time to spend money .

I have won many races on the 75 $ C pad. Im not talking out of my ass here. It is basically the same compound we were running in H4 cars ( made by Raysbestos )

I dont think they make it for a stock caliper though. the XR-2 pads are great too.

[Austin]

I ran the Porterfield R4S for 1 weekend, then the R4 for 1 weekend...I then moved to an early version of the Cobalt XR-3(Spec VR). I'm now running the XR-3 on the front of my H2 car, though I almost purchased the XR-2's instead, which have a slightly higher initial bite.

[adrian1281]

Originally Posted by Austin

I ran the Porterfield R4S for 1 weekend, then the R4 for 1 weekend...I then moved to an early version of the Cobalt XR-3(Spec VR). I'm now running the XR-3 on the front of my H2 car, though I almost purchased the XR-2's instead, which have a slightly higher initial bite.

What were your observations between the R4 and R4S?

[nsxtasy]

Originally Posted by FormulaIntegra

I had no idea that the R4's were not considered a "real" race pad.

Yes, they are. That's nonsense.

The R4 may not be the most aggressive or the longest-lasting compound, but it's a track pad, not a street pad.

Porterfield also makes a longer-lasting track pad, designed for endurance racing, called the R-4E.

Originally Posted by Autocratic

Personally, I wouldn't go with the Hawk Blues. Yes, the pad is proven on the track, but they dust like crazy and once it bakes onto your wheels it doesn't come off.

The pad material from the Hawk Blues (9012 compound) is notorious, not only for baking onto your wheels permanently, but also onto your car's finish on the body panels behind the wheel wells.

Originally Posted by adrian1281

What were your observations between the R4 and R4S?

I've used both. The R4 is a track pad, offering better grip and better resistance to heat than the R4S. It also squeals and needs to be warmed up to be effective, so it's not very suitable for street use. The R4S is really more of a street pad that can also be used for occasional light track duty; I wouldn't recommend them for a track-only car or in competition. (And I much prefer the Hawk HP Plus if you're looking for a pad that can be used on both the street and the track.)

[Austin]

Originally Posted by adrian1281

What were your observations between the R4 and R4S?

I used the R4S for my first ever track day, they lasted the one event and I changed them afterward....not a track pad. The R4 lasted the next weekend, I wasn't too impressed with them at all. I also tried a few other pads, but it's been a while. I know that I eventually called up Cobalt and had a discussion on what I was driving(whp/weight/speeds) and my driving/braking style and we chose a pad that should work based upon my specifics, and it turned out that it worked well for me.

Austin

[FerreiraCompetitions]

Originally Posted by FormulaIntegra

I'm leaning towards a refund, and trying either the Cobalt XR3's, Pagid yellows, or Ferodo DS3000s.

Ok, 2 things:
First, I tell you right now that you wont get a refund on a consumable race part. I've been at this and buying race parts since the early 90's and never have I heard of a refund after you used it. Replacements, yes in terms of warranty or good customer service but refunds forget it.

Second, with the pad compounds that you mentioned I can see that you still need to figure out what's best for what you want. The cobalt being a medium bite & torque, the Pagid being medium/endurance, and then the Ferodo being high bite and high torque but not lasting much at all, are all different with different characteristics.

Out of all of those though, the Ferodo is the best in terms of modulation, release, and torque with good cold bite, but the Pagid will outlast all of them.

What exactly do you want from the next pad you're going to get?

High/med/low initial bite
High/med/low torque
Cold bite, or ok if not?
Longevity of the pad important?
Low abrasion to the disc important?
Release characteristics important - fast or slow
Modulation important with high lockup threshold
Thermal consistency
Compressibility
Torque rise or flat?

All of these are important factors that you should be aware when chosing a pad. A lot of people really dont have a clue of whats going on in the friction event.

[descartesfool]

First you need to know how hot your discs are getting on track. You then tell the pad manufacturer that temperature and have them help in pad selection. If your discs are running hotter than suitable for the pad, the pads will wear very quickly or not grip or both. Considering the cost of good pads, temperature paints are really cheap. Here is a link to AP Racing (temp paint is available from a bunch of sources). Read their text about temps.

http://www.apracing.com/info/info.as...emperatures_44

You can buy some Tempilaq brand individual ones here: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...p?Product=3161

The AP Racing kit has 3 temperature paints and Tempilaq closest match
1. Green 430 c or 806F, Tempilaq 3161-850 (850F)
2. Orange 560C or 1040F, Tempilaq 3161-1000 (1000F)
3. Red 610C or 1130F, Tempilaq 3161-1150 (1150F)

Also get thinner.