gstrudler

Alright, I figured it was about time to start my build thread. I was hoping to get all the parts together with tax refund money, but some other priorities came up, so I've got some of the parts now and will be adding as money allows. Hopefully this should be done around the end of August, maybe end of September, so stay tuned!

This is my first full build, so I'm in for a learning process I know, and welcome any input and insight before I get myself into too much trouble.

The plan: f23 crank & rods with f20c/f22c pistons stuffed into a '98+ h22a4-SH, going into my '97 SH. At this point, I'm only doing the bottom end and trans work; I picked up a mildly ported head, but will be sticking with stock cams & vt and current bolt-ons.


Parts I have currently:
-'00 h22a4 head, mild cleanup
-f23 crank
-f23 rods
-CP 23mm wrist pins
-f20c/f22c pistons(have both sets to see which will work better - big props to Mike at Laskey Racing for helping out)
-Exedy Stage 1 clutch
-ACT Streetlight flywheel
-gearspeed carbon synchro set
-ARP head studs
-2 Blacktrax spacers
-GReddy eManage Ultimate
-GReddy AFR, oil pressure, and EGT sensors/gauges
-360cc injectors (stock f22c)
-'98 SH block
-ACL Race main & rod bearings

Intended other parts:
-ARP rod bolts (custom - check out the group buy thread)
-ATI damper
-Kaizenspeed b/s eliminator
-Honda piston rings
-Honda headgasket
-Circuit Worx oil pump gear

After the rods are done, I will need to do a test fit with the rotating assembly and head to see how well the valve reliefs will line up with the valves and see if they need work as well. Once that checks out, balance out the assembly.

I'll post more up later, I've got a few questions on break-in and such, but figured I'd at least get this out there and get some comments/advice going.

95greenlude

^why did you choose F20 pistons....Why not go with K20 pistons that use the same floating wrist pin? (**edited- on me....i thought you were using the F23 block! lol)

And whats the reason for Emanage? Are you planning on adding cams later on? Skip the emananage and go with a real tuning device. You'll eventually have to get one....

p.s. you should see some good torque! I just put my F23 block on my H23 head. Fun little DD!

LobeSex

im not getting how it will b a 2.3l h22 when u r using a 2.2l and parts from a 2.0l?

pprowler6

becasue hes using a crank out of a f23 and rods outta an f23 which is 2.3l which gives it the 2.3l stroke

LobeSex

my bad over looked that, had a couple a drinks excuse that ?

gstrudler

For those wondering; the whole reason I'm not just using an f23 block is because I want to retain the ATTS system, which means using the h22 block, and therefore the F20C pistons.

The eManage Ultimate again comes down to the ATTS system; I have to use a piggyback and keep it OBD2, not an ECU that's OBD1. From what I've been reading up on, the Ultimate has most of the features of Hondata or some other chipped ECU anyway: fuel tables, ignition tables, individual cylinder trim, wideband o2 input, etc. So it seems like a pretty good solution for me. The reason for putting it in now is the car will still need a tune. Even mostly stock these things need a tune, but adding 150cc's of displacement and around 1.5pts of compression definitely calls for some adjustments.

I'm definitely hoping for a better low & mid range. This is a daily driver and will hopefully one day see a little track time, but it is not a drag queen, so I'm not as concerned about massive high RPM output. Besides the fact I'm still a little leery of the f23 rods and spinning them up really high.

All-Motor-Junkie

im looking forward to your build,

If time isn't against you, i would recomend going with the f23 block and k20 pistons, and dump the atts and get real lsd m2b4 tst4 t2w4 or quafe in a m2a4 or s4, i think you enjoy it alot more, just my 2 cents. anyways looking forward to this build, you should have some nice low end torque, assuming your keeping this NA?

gstrudler

Update...

s2000 pistons showed up today; comparison below...

f22c on the left, f20c on the right



f22c on the left, f20c on the right


gas porting? looks the same on both.


I was surprised how different they actually were. Biggest difference is obviously the dome on the f20c. Both engines have the same compression (11:1), so I'm curious why the difference. The heads have difference part numbers, so I guess they could have changed the combustion chamber design, but that would have to be a big change. I'm guessing dynamic compression changes with stroke/piston speed; should I then assume Honda is quoting dynamic compression numbers instead of static?

The exhaust valve reliefs are also much larger on the f22c; intake reliefs appear about the same. If the dome of the f20c will fit in the h22 head, I'd like the extra compression, but if I wanted to run bigger cams later, I like the idea of bigger valve reliefs to work with (assuming they even closely line up with the valves). I'm assuming running a larger exhaust cam is what allowed the f22c to keep peak power output the same, but 800rpm lower than the f20c.

I'm also assuming that's gas porting you can see from the underside. Do most stock pistons have this? I've never looked at the h22 pistons, so I'm not sure how they compare. Anyway, thought some of you might find these pistons interesting.

kadidle

what about your ATTS will it handle this power or is it just a myth that the ATTS will fail on high hp builds ?

gstrudler

Sticking with stock cams, no intake work & low cost header, I'm almost guaranteed to be under 200whp. I've heard anywhere between 250-300whp is when the clutches inside the ATTS system will begin to fail, so I'm sure I'll be fine.

teefunk01

goodluck with the build

gstrudler

Finally found some bushings from Manley that will work and it looks like the rods won't need a lot of boring to fit, which is nice.

Okay, looking for experience & insight on the f23 rods. I'm debating how much I should try and treat them and surrounding parts to ensure reliability. For sure I'm upgrading the rods bolts to ARP. I'm assuming this should help fight spun bearings; I'm also going with Honda bearings so that I can size them as accurately as possible instead of using a one-size-fits-all like the ACL's. What else fails on these rods? Do the rods themselves ever actually self-destruct? I'm figuring on getting some light work done to at least remove casting marks and such to help relieve any stress risers, but I keep debating on cryo-treating. Most places only charge $10/rod, so it'd only be about $60 including shipping, but if it's not really needed, I don't want to be wasting money. The other thing I'm wondering about is wrist pins. I had originally thought about upgrading the wrist pins to tool steel pins, but now I'm wondering if that's necessary. It'll be the 23mm pins out of the f22c, so I'm not sure I'll have any issues. Experience here would be great. Ideally I'd like this motor to be capable of spinning to 8k or 8.5k rpm and want it to be able to handle up to 250whp in case I ever take the build that far.

I'm going to try and do some rough calculations in the next day or two on compression ratios for both sets of pistons in this motor. If anyone knows the combustion chamber volumes for the h22 and f20c heads that would be very helpful, otherwise I'll do my calc's assuming an equal volume to get me in the ballpark.

NirVTEC

Hmmmm......seems like a great bottom end......I would love to see some S2P2 cams and a real header.....along with the lack of ATTS.
You think this setup will be >200whp?
why are you keeping the ATTS?

gstrudler

To be honest, I've never driven anything with an LSD, so I don't really have anything for comparison, but I like the ATTS system. Right now I don't really have the money to change it out either with an LSD, so it stays. Being able to change gear ratios at some point would be nice, but I'm not too concerned about it; it's a dd and will unfortunately probably see very little track time. That and unless an LSD is immensely better than the ATTS (which I have yet to hear), there are so many other places the money could go to help make power or improve handling, it just doesn't seem worth it.

From everything I've seen on similar builds, I would be shocked if I hit 200whp. One of the things I've got going for me is that my cr will probably be in the 12:1 neighborhood. Once I can get a 3" exhaust in place with a good collector, I think I could be getting there. I also plan some intake work down the line that should improve upon my Injen SRI.

Waiting for a block and rods at the moment and then I can start getting the machine work done.

1998Lude

Damn, thats pretty sick.

jlude90

F22C has a longer stroke then the F20C, so wouldn't a longer crank not need so much dome for the same compression ratio?

I'd be interested in your finds after some measurement, I have Type-S pistons on my H23VTEC, and I like them, thinking about running them in a 97mm build.

Have you checked out SSR's build? i believe they did a similar build but i can't remember the specifics right now

gstrudler

Bingo. I started reading up on compression calculators and then it totally made sense that if you have a longer stroke, you gain compression because you're trying to cram more air into the same amount of space in the combustion chamber. Hence the f22c having almost no dome compared to the f20c's dome, despite being the same compression (actually .1 higher). Being that the f22c is already at 11.1:1 and I'm adding more stroke, I may end up going with those pistons, but I have to do the calculations to know for sure. The other thought might be to run a fairly high compression, but try to lower the cylinder temps by using a low temp t-stat to fight detonation.

I haven't looked into SSR's build yet; I'll have to check it out.

Still up for thoughts on the f23 rods and how worried I should be about them...

95greenlude

^if you're that worried...you could always pay for some crower rods(Yes clint....we know about crower)

gstrudler

Hmm, I'll have to check weights on various aftermarket pins and see where they fall.

Pirate, I could have sworn in one of your other threads, you said the K20a3 rod bolt could be used on the f23 rods; is that incorrect? That's what I was going off of.

95greenlude, I would love to have some forged rods for peace of mind, but it's entirely a cost thing. Custom forged rods would probably run me in the $800 range I would guess. Even with upgraded rod bolts and all the work I'm getting done to rebush and all that, it'll still be less than half the cost.

I started thinking again today realizing that the h22 piston has a dome on it. I haven't actually seen an h22 piston in person before, so the piston decision will probably have to wait until the engine is apart, but now I'm leaning more towards the f20c instead of the f22c.

B20luda

those holes are there for wrist pin lubrication, and the holes in the sides are for the oil to escape the oil control ring groove.. from what ive seen gas porting is only done to the top ring and holes are drilled down into the top ring groove behind the ring itself and can be seen from the top of the piston not the bottom

gstrudler

Cool, good info, thanks. I always thought gas porting was supposed to be between the top two rings (since it's supposed to help ring seal by allowing air in between to keep the rings flat), but was curious when I saw those holes.

jnv255

Cool build, GL..

jlude90

Type-S pistons, on an H23VTEC

you can see that the Type-S piston is overall larger, and probably heavier, but for the price, and a pretty much drop-in aside from a hone on the LE of the rod, its pretty attractive IMO

gstrudler

Wow, that dome is huge. Guess it'll be the f20c pistons for me for sure.

Interesting. I think ARP lists the rods bolts for the a2/a3, which might be incorrect. I'm going to call Honda and find out for sure what the bolt size is and then chat with ARP to see what they think.

gstrudler

Talked to Honda, as many already know the f23 shares the rod bolt with the k20a3 (as well as just about every other engine under the Honda badge since '03). Unfortunately they couldn't tell me what the actual bolt size was. ARP lists their rod bolt to work for any k20a series engine and I couldn't find any reports of them not working in the a3 searching around online. My guess is the thread pitch & size is the same, perhaps just different lengths (slightly). I didn't get a chance to call them before they closed, but I will hopefully get a chance tomorrow. I measured a stock f23 rod bolt using my micrometer, and it landed at 7.85mm in diameter if that means anything to anybody.

I started trying to figure out compression ratios. It appears the combustion chamber volumes are very close (53.6cc for f20c vs 53.8cc for h22); it'd be great if someone could confirm this. Using an online calculator (http://www.race-cars.net/calculators...alculator.html), it appears the f22c piston would have an overall dome volume of 4cc's and the f20c would be at 8cc's. Given these numbers, with a 97mm stroke the f22c piston would yield approximately 11.7 CR and the f20c would put me at 12.5 CR. I need to do some more hunting around to see what the general consensus is on streetable CR's; I know 11.7 is the safe way to go and is what is generally regarded as the upper limit for street motors, but I'm curious to see if anyone has made something in the 12's work reasonably.

Also, wondering about fueling. I originally figured I might be okay on stock injectors (maybe with a pressure boost), but now I'm not so sure figuring that I might be 20-30bhp over stock. It's interesting because I was looking at RC's tech guide and for 200bhp they recommend 328cc/min at .5 bsfc. This seems about on par for the h22a1 which uses 345cc p&h, but why does the h22a4 only use 290cc sat? I've got a lead on a set of f22c 340cc sat injectors for cheap, so if I can get those I'll probably go that route to be safe. Using RC's calculator, the h22a4 and f20c are both running a bsfc of .42, which is pretty efficient. Still curious about the difference between the h22a1 and h22a4 fueling, though.