New Spec Honda Series in Western Canada.

[P1_Variable]

Hello everyone, My Club (The Northern Alberta Sports Car Club) is currently looking to replace our ageing Challenge Car class with something a little newer and broader in the hopes of attracting more people. The Challenge Car class is made up of first generation RX7s and was originally designed to be a cheap way to get into real road racing. Sadly over time there were a lot of rule changes to allow more power and different parts. Now to build a car for that class you’re looking at spending nearly 20k to build a $5000.00 (if you’re lucky) race car. Our goal is for people to be able to build these cars for around $3000-$5000, and for the cars to be fun to drive, allowing for some adjustment and tuning. We have to remember that there are not a lot of people up here racing so the class has to be as cheap as possible while still providing us with a car that can run with IT and GT cars if need be. As of right now we are looking at running a spec street tire, likely something like an azenis 615. This will allow people to use a single set of tires for our 5-7 race season, hopefully anyway. I would really like some feed back from you guys on way to keep costs low and make the class as fun as possible with lots of close racing. Here are the rules we have laid out so far, most are up to change at this point. WCMA / NASCC B16 CHALLENGE CLASS SUPPLEMENTAL REGULATIONS B16 Challenge cars include various Honda platforms power by the B16A DOHC VTEC engine as described below. This Class allows for limited modification, in order to put an emphasis on driver skill over car selection and preparation. Only modification SPECIFICALLY stated in these rules are acceptable. IF A MODIFICATION IS NOT LISTED IN THESE RULES, IT CANNOT BE DONE. 1. Allowable Models of car. The following models of car are allowable for this class: 1989-2001 Acura Integra 1988-2000 Honda Civic 1989-1991 Honda CRX 1992-1997 Honda DelSol Both Left hand drive and Right hand drive chassis are allowable in this class. 2. Body. Permitted body modifications are listed below: a) The interior of the car may be gutted, including the removal of carpet, all insulation, seats and center console. Dash instrumentation must remain in place as well as the top section of the dash across the whole car. b) Doors may be gutted only if two anti-intrusion bars are fitted, per Appendix 1 of these regulations. c) Window glass may be removed from doors. d) Drivers seat must be replaced with a racing seat meeting applicable standards e) A strap-type window net is required as per Appendix 5 f) A roll cage as per Appendix 1 of the WCMA Technical Regulations – Race, must me fitted. Roll bar padding around the driver is mandatory. Bracing forward of the drivers compartment is prohibited, with the exception of strut tower braces. g) Minimum 5 point racing harness as per Appendix 4 of the WCMA Technical Regulations – Race is required. h) A removable steering wheel may be installed i) Factor front air dams and rear spoilers only are permitted. j) Fiberglass body panels are allowed if conforming to stock shape. k) Mirrors may be modified or replaced but must remain in stock locations. l) Removal of front headlights is allowed, although headlight must be replaced with a mock headlight conforming to stock shape and appearance must be used. m) No non-stock holes may be made in any body panels, rear spoilers, and fender openings. n) Windshield must remain stock. Windshield clips may be added. o) All other windows may be replaced with Plexi-Glass replacements. p) Hood pins are allowed. q) Emblems and side moldings may be removed. r) Cars may be painted as desired. Bodies must always be in good repair and presentable. s) Any decals required for sanctioning bodies and sponsors must be placed in required positions. 3. Suspension The following are the only permitted suspension modifications. a) Replacement of factory bushings with polyurethane replacements is allowed as long as those bushings retain stock dimensions. Use of spherical bearings is prohibited. b) Replacement of struts is unlimited as long as the the struts used retain a stock style design. Mono tube struts with internal reservoirs only. c) Coil Spring replacement is unlimited. d) Camber adjustable parts including aftermarket front and rear upper control arms are acceptable. e) Replacement of lower control arms is allowed but must retain the original style of strut configuration. eg. Integra Type R or 88 crx SI internal bolting lower control arms may not be used on a car that was originally equipped with a fork style rear strut. f) Front and rear strut tower braces are allowed, both bolted and welded designs. Front upper strut bars are limited to a 2 point design but may incorporate a brake master cylinder brace in there design. g) Lower tie bars and H braces are allowed but they must bolt to factory bolting locations. h) Rear lower bolt on sub-frame braces are allowed but must bolt to factory bolting locations. i) Use of top hat mounts for struts is prohibited 4. Wheels and Tires The following wheels and tires may be used. a) Wheels are limited to a 15 inch wheel no wider then 7 inches with no more then a 42mm offset. b) Wheels have a minimum weight of 10 pounds c) Tires are to be 205/50/15, no exceptions. d) Use of wheel spacers is prohibited 5. Braking systems The following brake system modifications are allowed. a) Any Honda factory brake caliper and rotor may be used. These include parts designed for cars not listed in the allowable models above. b) Rear drums may be replaced with disk brake assemblies. c) Brake fluids are unlimited d) Use of stainless steel brake lines is allowed. e) Use of a adjustable brake bias valve is allowed. f) Use of alternate proportioning valves is allowed. 6. Engine a) All cars must run a variation of the B16A engine, B16A1, B16A2, or B16A3 engines are allowed as well as the JDM B16A. B16B engines are prohibited b) Engines must remain internally stock. c) Engines must run a stock intake manifold and throttle body. d) External catch can system can be used, but the system must either drain back to the block / oil pan. (A vented catch can system is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED) e) Oil Coolers are unlimited. f) Remote oil filter mounts are unlimited but must remain inside the engine bay. g) Aftermarket Oil Pressure / Oil temp / Water temp / RPM / O2 Sending units are allowed. h) Fuel Pressure regulators and gauges are allowed. 7. Exhaust a) Exhaust Modifications are unlimited but must remain below 92 Db at 50 feet. b) Aftermarket headers and test pipes are unlimited. 8. Drive-train a) The following Honda factory transmissions are allowed in this class - Hydraulic Transmissions - Y21,S21, Y80, S4C, and S80. *NOTE* the S80 transmission from a 94+ integra special edition with a 4.266 final drive is prohibited. - Cable Transmissions - YS1, S1, J1 b) All transmissions are limited Honda 4.4 final drive gear. c) Gearing is limited to factory Honda parts only. Aftermarket syscros are allowed. d) Limited Slip Differentials are limited to factory Honda units e) Transmission fluids are unlimited. f) Transmission coolers are unlimited. g) Use of magnetic drain plugs is allowed 9. Cooling System a) Modification of the cooling system is unlimited 10. Engine Electronics, Ignition and Fuel System Modification a) ECU must remain stock and be mounted in plain view. A clear plexi-glass cover is to be used in place of the factory steel Honda cover for easy inspection. b) Ignition system must remain stock, no aftermarket coils or control units c) A fuel pressure gauge may be added to the fuel rail or filter. No other modifications are allowed to any part of the factory fuel system. 11. Weight a) Cars must have a minimum weight of 2400 pounds. b) If ballast is required it must be bolted to the floor of the car. 12. Radio Communication, On board Timing Equipment & Data Acquisition a) Any 2 way (voice only) communication may be used between the driver and crew. b) Communication between drivers during a race or other on track session is specifically prohibited. c) On board timing systems are allowed. On board timing systems, if fitted, may only be used by the driver. Transmission between the driver and the pits is prohibited. d) Data Acquisition systems of any type are prohibited.

This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on Honda-Tech!

[P1_Variable]

I just notice that I posted up a slightly older version on this list.. item 6A has been removed. We are not going to allow the addition of fuel pressure regulators.

[RagingAngel]

-rewards weight should be added

-clutches should be open to puck types if you're keeping the OEM flywheel

-spherical bearings are becoming more and more affordable - they should be allowed

-having the ability to swap between OEM ITR/fork style USDM rear LCAs should be permitted

-LSDs should be open to any gear type base. It's often cheaper to find an OBX than it is an OEM one.

-crank pulleys and accessory pulleys should be OEM

-oil pan capacity increase should be allowed and aftermarket oil pans should be allowed to follow suit. Baffling is highly recommended.

at least that's what I think....

[mlrmotorsports]

No K series motors?

[jdm-ek-si]

i think the olny thing that should be changed is the weight issue most older model civics way less than newer ones and they should be made to either add wieght or heavyer cars shold be allowed to add a little more power to thier engine package

also cars should have to have a visible tow hook or tow loop to make it easyer to remove vehicle from race track

[P1_Variable]

All the cars are running stock B16s... its suppose to be cheap.

If all cars are required to wiegh a minimum of 2400 pounds we shouldn't have to worry about anything. This way the power to wieght ratio of all cars should be the same.

[EdoMoto]

Suspension advantage on some newer cars will be faster. So weight penalty should be considered race by race basis. To even the playing field.
Just beacuse its the same engine doesnt mean a 1988 CRX and a 2001 Integra will be evenly matched with a B16.


Edo

[slammed_93_hatch]

i think there is a type-O

1989 -2001 integras

the 89 model year is completely different, why include one year of the strut and torrsion bar integra but not the rest?


I think it is supposed to be 1990-2001.

Originally Posted by EdoMoto

Suspension advantage on some newer cars will be faster. So weight penalty should be considered race by race basis. To even the playing field.
Just beacuse its the same engine doesnt mean a 1988 CRX and a 2001 Integra will be evenly matched with a B16.


Edo

With the exception noted above, the suspensions listed on the cars are almost all identical. And i wouldn't say one has an advantage over the other. THe 88-91 civic/CRX and 90-93 integra have very similiar suspension and the rest share a very similar suspension.

I'd also think about changing the word strut to shock or damper, since none of the listed cars have struts.


I like the sound of the series though! Sounds very similar to something an idea that was tossed around down here.

[Downey]

i like the idea! Can you do a few races in California?

[ekim952522000]

I think a B20 would make a better engine choice much cheaper than b16's

[P1_Variable]

But you can rev a b16 to the ends of the earth, they sound like race engines. The engines are also easier to obtain. I will make the changes in wording and the model year change.

I would be more then willing to come down and do some racing in cali. But you guys have to come up and do some ice racing with us here in the winter.

http://www.vimeo.com/1507185 <- the first like 5 mins of this is pretty boaring... but after we get the pace lap out of the way it shows what we do up here for 4 months with our race cars.

Nothing like racing at 90mph on glare ice (a lake with the snow removed) with nothing but a set of unstudded blizzacks.

Actually I would come to cali anyway, but I would bring my GT3 civic instead.

[Lo-Buck EF]

i understand the 205-50-15 to keep it cheap, but i'd let the offset be open just cause +40 and +38 wheels are easy to come by

[h46it]

Maybe you should more consider b18a's. They are super cheap. $150CDN in the junkyards. Not everyone can still afford a b16a swap. With the closing of Race City where are you going to race during the summertime?

Your weight being 2400lbs is that including driver? This might be bit high. As many of the hatchback can be easily under 2400lbs.

Why can't all other glass excluding the windshield have to be replaced with plexi?

I like your idea just needs a bit more refinement. I just don't think your Spec Honda series very cheap to get into. With all the rules you have set in place you can run in IT much cheaper. Less rules and more freedom. Maybe if you just choose one model of Honda/Acura the cost could be less. ie. 90-93 integra.

See you in IT next year!

[89civicdx]

Why limit top hat mounts and then make struts unlimited. Because if this is supposed to be a truly affordable series then give the guy on a real budget the option to use his welding machine and add travel to whatever shock he has.


^Also that is true B16 everything is still very expensive I can't afford that whole swap into a 88-91. Then if you blow a motor what is it still like $500+





Modified by 89civicdx at 7:26 PM 8/13/2008

[clem kevin]

that video looked like a hell of a lot of fun

would you not consider allowing 195/55/15?

it seems like tires are harder to come by in 15" sizes and you might make things easier (unless you want to make only 1 tire allowed)

is the weight of 2400lbs with driver? wouldnt it be a little tough to get a crx to weigh that much?

[slammed_93_hatch]

some cars would have to be "over built" to get to the weight, and others would be pretty close to right on the weight.

You aren't going to make everyone happy, so its best to compromise between them all. And 2400lbs is a good compromise, i think that it could be brought down to 2350, but then the integras with a bigger driver might have a hard time making it.

If he made the the motor a b18a, there would be just as many people in here saying that "it should be the b16a thats the best honda motor, and the most reliable" ect ect

[Super79Dave]

Ok I'll start at the top and work my way down with my issues.
What are Factor Five Air dams? Home Depot is your friend make your own.
Carbon Fiber and fiiberglass body was not addressed.
Spherical bearings are cheap as stated they should be alowed
Control arms should be whatever they want to be JDM suspension is dirt cheap and this is supposed to be a cheap class.
Top hats are only used to allow for proper shock travel, Alot cheaper than sending your shocks out to be shortened and revalved. Allowed.
Spacers should be allowed for fender clearance only. Cheap wheels= rubbage i need a spacer.
Limiting to b16 limit's your car count huge, just vary the rules to H1-h2-h3-h4 and work it out. Spec series is cool but just run all the honda/acura's together at the same time as other racing and have our own points and trophy's etc....
Your brake rule should clarify master cylinder choice.
Why eliminate the 4.2 FD it's a cheap easy to find tranny and a 4.2 gets you around RCMP just fine.
Weight my car weighs 2260 with me in it and full of gas, 2400 is gonna be hard to get to. Instead of running a base weight, and making the cars unable to compete in WCMA and ARCA, give weight penalties based on performance.

Ok I did this quick but those are my issues. I applaud your initiative but
SuperDave #70 IT2

[P1_Variable]

The idea is for the series to be as open as possible. That means we want people to be able to find a shell without to much difficulty. Thats why we were going to allow so many different types of cars. The weight restriction is based on what we realistically think a race prepped DC integra could weigh. We don't want anyone to be at a clear disadvantage just because they decided to use a newer car which was a lot easier to find without serious rust issues. If we get a couple DC integras out and have a chance to see what they actually could weigh we might be able to cut some weight off that.

Adding another 140 pounds to your car shouldn't be that big a deal. especially considering adding a b16 to your car should give it another 50+ hp.

We are not looking to vary the rules to h1-h4 because we are likely only going to have 6 cars in the first season of racing. If we had a fleet of maybe 30 cars competing I could see doing something like that, but honestly thats not going to happen here in Alberta.

Where can I find these "cheap" spherical bearings... because I would am in the middle of reworking my GT3 car and would like to do the conversion.

Luckily it seems that Race city keeps getting chances at staying open just a little bit longer. Personally I am hoping that it will be open tell 2010, giving us a couple years before we need to find something else. If that doesn't happen the NASCC will likely try and get us more dates up here at Namao. Apparently someone is attempting to build a track is Drumheller right now that could be ready to go in the next 5 years.

On a side note, How the hell does a turbocharged B18c1 swapped EG hatchback end up in ITGT? Better yet, how does said car get worked hard by Dominics near stock B16a2 swapped car ?

[Mr_ET]

I would be interested in the series for sure and actually was planing on buying a shell fairly soon for either autox or road racing so this sounds very promising.

Where will the events be run, Stratotech or Racecity? I am in Calgary so you can probably guess which one I would prefer. Is this series open to novices or should I have some licences?

[h46it]

Well i can understand that you want a min weight leaning towards a DC2. But is that fair when smaller hatchbacks can be under weight and add blast to the car to where they feel then need to balance out the vehicle? I can't seeing too many ppl showing up with DC2 just purely of the cost of the car.

Well the B16a may have 50+ hp on a D16a6 but they have the same amount of TQ.

Well that's new to me that Race City can be open longer? I thought for sure it was gone. Would be nice if Race City stays open, but i'm not holding my breathe. As long as they keep up the track. Its really quite bad in turn 5 and the carousel.

Originally Posted by P1_Variable

On a side note, How the hell does a turbocharged B18c1 swapped EG hatchback end up in ITGT? Better yet, how does said car get worked hard by Dominics near stock B16a2 swapped car ?

Well to my knowledge its a turbo b18a/b t3/4. Could be setup, tuning, weight.....Better yet Driver!!!!

[P1_Variable]

Apparently Sue from ARCA was saying something about the track being open to 2010, but considering how cluse the freeway construction is getting I find it a little hard to belive my self. Both the race city and Namao tracks favor high HP cars.

As for the condition on the track at race city, at least they paved the corners that they had coned off the last time I actually drove there. Tire eating sized pot holes at the apex was a complete joke.

I would think that most people would avoid a DC2 or 4 awell but as it sits right now we have 2 EF civics, 2 EG civics, 1 DA integra and 2 DC integras running here. From what I can see / remember. I would assume that we would see the same kind of mixed bag in this series.

Here is some video from Race City from a B16a2 swapped EG hatch I took at the last race we had.

http://www.vimeo.com/1506739

I should have put the camera on the other side of the car.. but I will know better for next time I guess.


Modified by P1_Variable at 10:15 AM 8/14/2008

[Super79Dave]

Ok as regards to weight Ricks #38 weighs in at 2210 with him in it. The red 66 weighs 2460 with driver.

I think that your hopes of dividing people into one class are high for the first season. People have invested alot in current setups and will not change in order to compete in spec class unless you are offering high $$$ prizes.
Start searching for spherical bearings costs are coming down real fast.

Ok to address the side note Brando's b18 turbo car at 200whp is a monster but he is learning to drive. Domo's 2600lb civic has the power but not quite the right handling yet. I have the setup experience but no hp so i am quicker in sections than all of them. These will be serious things to contend with, allowing the cars to be eligible to run in various classes allows for more fun.
I truely still want to be able to run with the chalenge cars and compete with other cars.
ITGT is intended as a catch all class for cars converting to GT1-5 your not supposed to build a car especially for ITGT. It's original intention was to be you ran it for one year and then moved on to GT.

However as cars especially imports can do engine swaps on the cheap it is filling up fast. There needs to be a new set of designations or rule changes to allow for swapped cars as was done in SOLO rules. Personally i believe that any civic of integra with a swapped in VTEC should be able to run IT1 rules.

[mattEG]

As the co-author / sponsor to the series with Variable I figured I'd chime in here quick.

Originally Posted by h46it

Well i can understand that you want a min weight leaning towards a DC2. But is that fair when smaller hatchbacks can be under weight and add blast to the car to where they feel then need to balance out the vehicle? I can't seeing too many ppl showing up with DC2 just purely of the cost of the car.

That's easily fixed, weight is to be fastened to the passenger side floor. Done.

Originally Posted by h46it

Well the B16a may have 50+ hp on a D16a6 but they have the same amount of TQ.

The B16 is a better motor for road-racing, hands down. The higher revs along with increased power make it more fun to drive and better for the crowd (all eight of them). The difference in cost between longblocks is really quite minimal. I have yet to find a useable b18b in the junkyard for less than $600, for another $200 you can grab a b16 longblock from jdmtigerjapanese, etc.

Originally Posted by h46it

Well that's new to me that Race City can be open longer? I thought for sure it was gone. Would be nice if Race City stays open, but i'm not holding my breathe. As long as they keep up the track. Its really quite bad in turn 5 and the carousel.

The rumor is that we might get another couple years, but I doubt that is a possibility. Even if we do, I don't think they are going to spend the money to fix the track so it'll likely lose it's sanction anyhow.

Originally Posted by h46it

Well to my knowledge its a turbo b18a/b t3/4. Could be setup, tuning, weight.....Better yet Driver!!!!

You hit the nail on the head with the driver bit. Speed is earned.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Carbon Fiber and fiberglass body was not addressed.

I believe it was adddressed in the above that they were allowed, as as long as the car meets weight, who cares.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Spherical bearings are cheap as stated they should be alowed

This reads to me as, "I have them in my car already, please allow them." That said, the cheapest I've found is still over the $200 mark, and we're looking to keep things as budget / simple as possible. I don't think you'll see those written into any rules.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Control arms should be whatever they want to be JDM suspension is dirt cheap and this is supposed to be a cheap class.

Perhaps a better way to do it is to allow any stock replacement honda piece. Allowing aftermarket runs costs up yet again.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Top hats are only used to allow for proper shock travel, Alot cheaper than sending your shocks out to be shortened and revalved. Allowed.

Agreed, this is a good idea.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Spacers should be allowed for fender clearance only. Cheap wheels= rubbage i need a spacer.

You're running the wrong offset if they rub. Track makes a difference, therefore spacers = banned.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Limiting to b16 limit's your car count huge, just vary the rules to H1-h2-h3-h4 and work it out. Spec series is cool but just run all the honda/acura's together at the same time as other racing and have our own points and trophy's etc....

The idea is to build a quick SPEC class, with little complexity in rules and car construction to allow for a very low amount of time involved in building a competitive car. Writing a Honda Challenge set of rules requires us to have far more volunteer count to make everything work as well, which we already have problems with. Thus, the simple formula takes precedent.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Your brake rule should clarify master cylinder choice.

I believe it says any honda part can be used, therefore master cylinders can be swapped.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Why eliminate the 4.2 FD it's a cheap easy to find tranny and a 4.2 gets you around RCMP just fine.

Again, this spreads cars out, making for a greater difference in parts / speed / etc making the series require more "off track" support than we can likely provide in this side of the country.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Weight my car weighs 2260 with me in it and full of gas, 2400 is gonna be hard to get to. Instead of running a base weight, and making the cars unable to compete in WCMA and ARCA

The rules will hopefully be written in as a class at the next WCMA AGM, so this will be it's own class (with any luck). This will not be a side class competition type thing, we are going to try to get them recognized. The weight shouldn't be an issue, attach ballast in passenger footwell.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

, give weight penalties based on performance.

This is a good idea, as put forth by a few people. Assuming we can scrounge the volunteer base, we will run this.

Originally Posted by Mr_ET

I would be interested in the series for sure and actually was planing on buying a shell fairly soon for either autox or road racing so this sounds very promising.

Where will the events be run, Stratotech or Racecity? I am in Calgary so you can probably guess which one I would prefer. Is this series open to novices or should I have some licences?

Like all other racing classes you will require a general competition license obtainable at many schools throughout Canada.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

Ok as regards to weight Ricks #38 weighs in at 2210 with him in it. The red 66 weighs 2460 with driver.

In my mind this means our 2400lb rule will work quite well for most. Rick's car would be ineligible simply because of the amount of mods, no dash, etc, etc. However 66 would be nearly perfect with the right motor.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

I think that your hopes of dividing people into one class are high for the first season. People have invested alot in current setups and will not change in order to compete in spec class unless you are offering high $$$ prizes.

I think as all new classes are the hopes are high. With that said we need to ensure any class rules that are written are clean, simple, and easy to understand and adhere to. Introducing complexity in our end of the world only seems to scare potential competitors away from entering. We just don't have the population to support a full Honda Challenge type deal.

The idea with this is to bring back a quicker version of the Honda Michelin series. They were based on bone stock cars and were darn quick. The idea behind the motor and other changes combined with weight is to provide a quick car that can be built on many different platforms yet perform nearly the same. This will help us bring more cars in as there will be greater platform choice for the newb.

Originally Posted by Super79Dave

ITGT is intended as a catch all class for cars converting to GT1-5 your not supposed to build a car especially for ITGT. It's original intention was to be you ran it for one year and then moved on to GT.

However as cars especially imports can do engine swaps on the cheap it is filling up fast. There needs to be a new set of designations or rule changes to allow for swapped cars as was done in SOLO rules. Personally i believe that any civic of integra with a swapped in VTEC should be able to run IT1 rules.

The ITGT class is a huge load of crap in my honest opinion, but I understand why it's there.

That said, if we could classify all swapped honda's in IT1 that would be neat, but I don't think we'll see that happen, no to mention the utter domination that you would see with the first k-series swap.


Keep in mind that the spirit of this class is to provide cheap, even, and fun racing while still providing a broad variety of vehicle choices for any competitor.

[Super79Dave]

Wow i gotta wait to reply properly to all of this. However i'll simply state $200.00 spehrical bearings that's cheap if your roadraceing. If you can't find 200.00 in your roadrace budget, you probably shouldn't start racing.
If b16's are so cheap and available you probably should by them up so you can supply the series. I'll take 2.
Oh and i don't have them.
Next I probably won't race in your series with current proposed rules, Ie no fun I'd rather compete current rules, The idea to me of building a car making it as light and as close to IT weight rule and then going and adding 200lbs of ballast is backwards.



Modified by Super79Dave at 1:17 PM 8/14/2008

[ekim952522000]

Why not just use current H2 rules as is and run a branch of Honda Challenge up there just don't offer all the classes so everyone has to run in the same class? All the work is done and it is very similar to what you are proposing. IMO Spec classes do not do anything to limit cost anyway.


Modified by ekim952522000 at 1:31 PM 8/14/2008