Hasbro

Hi,
New here. I did a search and didn't come up with anything. If there is a thread somewhere please tell me what you typed for the search.

Does anyone know the specific suspension differences between the two. Not the EDM Type R.

Do they have the same pickup points/are the chassis the same in that regard?

Is the track wider?

Do the arms have more usable camber?

Any more travel?

Roll centers, front and rear different? Adjustable?

While I'm at it - Scrub radius (USDM/JDM): How far can you go in mms. before losing cornering efficiency?

etc., etc.

I have more questions re. JDM aftermarket mods such as Tracy Sports LCAs but will hold off on those.

Thanks


Modified by Hasbro at 12:15 AM 8/11/2008


Modified by Hasbro at 12:21 AM 8/11/2008

DC5Tuner

As far as I know, only the JDM DC5R had the wider track, different control arms, knuckles, longer axles, longer sway etc.

The JDM EP3R is the same as the USDM and EDM, it's just the shocks and springs are different. Also the front sway was 24mm and rear was 22mm. The pickup points and control arms and everything else is the same. Just imagine a USDM EP3 or USDM DC5 with a different shock/spring combo and that's it. The control arms, axles, etc are all the same. The axles are going to be a bit beefier then the USDM EP3 if I remeber correctly but they're the same length and everything. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Todd00

What are you doing to want to know all of this information?

And did you look through the FAQ at the top of the page (under 'Suspension')? If you're trying to make a 'track car' out of the EP3/RSX chassis, I recommend reading each one of them.

But to keep it simple, the chassis are all identical. Minor 'bolt-on' items are changed, such as length of front control arms, swaybars, etc.

Hasbro

Toddoo, I read all of the FAQ articles (thanks for all that info!) and couldn't find a comparison. I'm just trying to research as much as possible to understand these quirky suspensions and to see if the JDMs circumvented any of the weaknesses. I had read an article somewhere a while ago that made the JDM suspension sound so much better performance wise. IIRC, it had to do with balancing the front and rear roll centers (hear that is difficult to do) and having a wider track, etc. Perhaps it was an aftermarket track mod, can't remember. Was hoping they might have parts that would improve spring travel for one thing.

My intent is to pull 400+ lbs off (getting there) and improve the suspension. Weight and cg not too big a problem, travel and MacPherson's... I will use it for a dd and tackdays/autox and intend to keep it for many years (good chassis, huge interior, newer than a CRX) Just so you know I have been lightening cars for 20 years and understand what they are like on the road. I've had three 1300 lb. and two 1600 lb. cars. Yes a little bit eccentric but everytime I get in a car it's an adventure!

By the way, I'm averaging 34/37 mpg and will get it to 40 someday.

Mugen Dom

suspension on the jdm ep is gonna be the same as they said above...the front sway will have a hump to get over the header like the dc5r. The axles I'm pretty sure will be the same as the DC5S though i would think the outer splines would be beefier like them. The Brakes are the same as the DC5S just say TypeR on em but pads rotors all the same as DC5S

Hasbro

Thanks, all. So there really isn't an advantage to using Type R stuff for mods. The reason they handle better (aside from seam welding, slightly less weight and cg?) is purely bars, springs, dampers and brakes.





Modified by Hasbro at 3:07 AM 8/12/2008

Todd00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hasbro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks, all. So there really isn't an advantage to using Type R stuff for mods. The reason they handle better (aside from seam welding, slightly less weight and cg?) is purely bars, springs, dampers and brakes.

Modified by Hasbro at 3:07 AM 8/12/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is incorrect. Unlike the old DC2R, the DC5 Type R chassis are exactly the same as the 'normal' ones we got in the US. No more seam-welding, building up weak sections, etc. They are all identical.

The reason the stock DC5R handles better stock than the stock USDM Type S is:

1) Better springrates, shock valving and slightly lower cg
2) Swaybars
3) Wheel/Tire Size
4) A few 'bolt-on' tweaks (Aluminum front control arms, a few minor chassis bars, etc)
5) Less weight through less options (and a few aluminum components)

FullEP3

If you do plan on using the car for track, you WILL notice a before/after difference with the Type R parts. I highly recommend this upgrade for track use cars ... I say this only because you will never notice a difference with street use.

My 03 EP3 is a track dedicated car and I've been running with the DC5R swap for 2 yrs ... so much can be said with the addition of these parts. It really is a night and day comparison between the car dynamics before and after the swap. The larger rear sway has helped the back end a good bit, the addition of front and rear track is visible (esp if running a +45mm offset wheel), the Brembo brakes up front provide more than enough stopping force ... all in all it has made the car a blast to drive on track and has turned quite a few heads doing it!

Todd00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FullEP3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you do plan on using the car for track, you WILL notice a before/after difference with the Type R parts. I highly recommend this upgrade for track use cars ... I say this only because you will never notice a difference with street use.

My 03 EP3 is a track dedicated car and I've been running with the DC5R swap for 2 yrs ... so much can be said with the addition of these parts. It really is a night and day comparison between the car dynamics before and after the swap. The larger rear sway has helped the back end a good bit, the addition of front and rear track is visible (esp if running a +45mm offset wheel), the Brembo brakes up front provide more than enough stopping force ... all in all it has made the car a blast to drive on track and has turned quite a few heads doing it!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you're making a track car, there are way better options than most OEM Type R parts if laptimes matter to you.

Mugen Dom

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This is incorrect. Unlike the old DC2R, the DC5 Type R chassis are exactly the same as the 'normal' ones we got in the US. No more seam-welding, building up weak sections, etc. They are all identical.

The reason the stock DC5R handles better stock than the stock USDM Type S is:

1) Better springrates, shock valving and slightly lower cg
2) Swaybars
3) Wheel/Tire Size
4) A few 'bolt-on' tweaks (Aluminum front control arms, a few minor chassis bars, etc)
5) Less weight through less options (and a few aluminum components)</TD></TR></TABLE>
You do relize he said EP3R not DC5R
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hasbro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks, all. So there really isn't an advantage to using Type R stuff for mods. The reason they handle better (aside from seam welding, slightly less weight and cg?) is purely bars, springs, dampers and brakes.

Modified by Hasbro at 3:07 AM 8/12/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>yes that is correct and its got wider wheels shorter body too less bumper material etc...

Todd00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mugen Dom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You do relize he said EP3R not DC5R

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Doesn't matter. An EP3 chassis is an EP3 chassis no matter where you go in the world or what trim it comes in.

FullEP3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If you're making a track car, there are way better options than most OEM Type R parts if laptimes matter to you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There's more to turning faster lap times than brand name parts ... driver skill, car familiarity, track familiarity, etc ...

Mugen Dom

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Doesn't matter. An EP3 chassis is an EP3 chassis no matter where you go in the world or what trim it comes in.</TD></TR></TABLE>You sure cause in Canada the rear bumpers welded to the car where as in the US its bolted and Japan and europe its a completely different peice. Ive read somewhere the EP3R does have the welds he spoke but i cant remember where it was a brocshure i think

Todd00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mugen Dom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You sure cause in Canada the rear bumpers welded to the car where as in the US its bolted and Japan and europe its a completely different peice. Ive read somewhere the EP3R does have the welds he spoke but i cant remember where it was a brocshure i think</TD></TR></TABLE>


A welded or bolted bumper does not = extra chassis rigidity. That's why Honda 'supplimented' the DC2R with welds and extra material in certain areas over the normal DC2 shell.

Todd00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FullEP3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

There's more to turning faster lap times than brand name parts ... driver skill, car familiarity, track familiarity, etc ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok...but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I could take a stock 95 Civic Dx hatch and turn a faster autox time than several people in a new Corvette...but that isn't what were talking about.

Example: The EP3R rear sway is what, 23mm? The Mugen rear sway is 25mm. The 25mm bar is going to be the better piece if you want to turn a quicker laptime.

Mugen Dom

this is what i found after seaching for a minute while my coworkers are smoking


Body

To improve edge-of-the-envelope performance and responsiveness during spirited driving, the body employs high tensile-strength steel in approximately 60% of its structural frame members. The new frame body is lightweight and super rigid.

The body has 20% higher bending and 80% higher torsional static rigidity than the previous TYPE R.

Body rigidity has been further increased by employing a dash upper rod, front and rear strut tower bars, and performance rods to strengthen floor frame linkage and expand cross-sectional area throughout.

Chassis


Employs toe-control link strut suspension in the front and reactive-link double-wishbone suspension in the rear. This combines with the sharp steering feel of the VGR (variable gear ratio) and EPS (electric power steering) to attain a level of performance handling one would expect in a TYPE R.

The suspension arm and hub bearing have been strengthened for higher road-contact rigidity, resulting in improved handling response and linearity.

Tension angles in the rear suspension's upper and lower arms have been optimized. Hypothetical arm length has been extended, reducing change in the rear roll-center height during roll. The suspension is set to always maintain a front-down roll stance. This makes it easy for the driver to understand the car's behavior, for an improved sense of unity between man and machine.

Employs torque-responsive helical limited-slip differential and 205/45R17 large-diameter tires. The front brakes incorporate 16-inch ventilated disks, with master power assembly, piston configuration, bands, and so on tuned to attain superb responsiveness with a minimum of brake pressure. This firm, responsive brake feel helps increase driving pleasure.

Hasbro

2nd Generation (EP3 chassis)
Second generation
(EP3) 2006 Civic Type R
Production 2001-2005
Body style(s)
3-door hatchback
Layout FF layout
Engine(s) 2.0 L K20A I4
Transmission(s) 6-speed manual

In 2001 Honda introduced the next generation of the Civic Type R (EP3) as a unique 3 door hatchback to the UK market, which was manufactured in Swindon, England. This EDM Civic Type R featured a 197hp 2.0L i-VTEC engine (K20A) and the regular Type R treatment of seam welding, close ratio transmission and uprated brakes, but did not include some of the other higher-end features, such as the helical LSD and Recaro race-seats, that were standard in the previous generation EK9. However, Honda Japan still had a JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) version of the EP3 (which was also manufactured in Swindon, but shipped to Japan for finishing touches), which retained the highly renowned helical LSD similar to that of the EK9. Other differences included a more track-oriented chassis with undercarriage settings as compared to the EDM, as well as a 214 BHP engine with different camshafts and ECU programming. The JDM EP3 was also available in the traditional Type R championship white while the EDM was not. The EDM has more relaxed gear ratios and some high rpm horse power traded for low rpm torque compared to the JDM .

The EDM EP3 Civic Type R was much acclaimed by motoring journalists across the UK, winning 'Hot Hatch of the Year' awards more than once from Top Gear, Fifth Gear and What Car?. The Civic Type R became a popular alternative for mainstream drivers clocking huge sales numbers. The 2001 release of this CTR, as it is commonly referred to, also indicated Honda's return to Formula One after almost 10 years as an engine supplier to the Jordan and BAR teams - this eventually led to the full-fledged comeback as a dedicated F1 works team in 2005 with Honda gaining full ownership of British American Racing.

2004 saw this successful CTR updated with many improvements - revised EPS with quicker steering, revised suspension settings, HID headlamps (JDM only), lighter clutch and flywheel assembly etc; based on Honda literature, this facelifted (FL) model was targeted at addressing customers' and critics' feedback such as understeer on the limit (due to the front Macpherson strut setup), numb steering response and lack of low end torque.

Performance (all figures are aprox)

0-60mph in 6.6/6.8secs (JDM/EDM pre-FL), 6.2/6.4secs (JDM/EDM FL) 0-100mph in 15.4/16secs (JDM/EDM FL) Top Speed 147 mph (237 km/h)





Modified by Hasbro at 12:46 AM 8/13/2008