93 Octane vs. E85 Dyno Results on a Naturally Aspirated Engine
07-25-2008, 10:16 AM
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93 Octane vs. E85 Dyno Results on a Naturally Aspirated Engine
I just did quick little back to back test on 93 octane vs. E85 the other day and thought i'd share the results. The engine is a large displacement K with mild compression. I think i was roughly 12.5:1. I wont get into details on the engine, i would just like to share and discuss the power differences between the two gasolines.
The green run is 93 octane
The blue run is e85.
The engine on 93 octane wanted a little bit of a leaner mixture for best power. The e85 took about an additional ~6 degrees of timing to make its best power. It also like running a tad bit more rich than the 93 octane. Overall i was pretty impressed with a 3% gain in horsepower.
I will be updating this thread shortly with a few more naturally aspirated back to back results for e85 vs. 93 octane.
Word up.
The green run is 93 octane
The blue run is e85.
The engine on 93 octane wanted a little bit of a leaner mixture for best power. The e85 took about an additional ~6 degrees of timing to make its best power. It also like running a tad bit more rich than the 93 octane. Overall i was pretty impressed with a 3% gain in horsepower.
I will be updating this thread shortly with a few more naturally aspirated back to back results for e85 vs. 93 octane.
Word up.
Last edited by MikeySpec; 04-03-2009 at 08:33 AM.
07-25-2008, 02:39 PM
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Re: (dinko)
I'm not suprised by this at all,
Ethenol is a better fuel for racing applications, it just has it's real world dissadvantages such as not liking to combust below 10degC and causing corrosion on aluminum parts.
E85 is a great idea because when blended you get some of the advantages of Ethanol, but stay away from the pitfalls.
Ethenol is a better fuel for racing applications, it just has it's real world dissadvantages such as not liking to combust below 10degC and causing corrosion on aluminum parts.
E85 is a great idea because when blended you get some of the advantages of Ethanol, but stay away from the pitfalls.
07-25-2008, 03:43 PM
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Re: (logg_frogg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by logg_frogg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not suprised by this at all,
Ethenol is a better fuel for racing applications, it just has it's real world dissadvantages such as not liking to combust below 10degC and causing corrosion on aluminum parts.
E85 is a great idea because when blended you get some of the advantages of Ethanol, but stay away from the pitfalls.</TD></TR></TABLE>
x2
Ethenol is a better fuel for racing applications, it just has it's real world dissadvantages such as not liking to combust below 10degC and causing corrosion on aluminum parts.
E85 is a great idea because when blended you get some of the advantages of Ethanol, but stay away from the pitfalls.</TD></TR></TABLE>
x2
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07-25-2008, 04:03 PM
#8
Did you estimate additional fuel consumption with the E85? Could be important for endurance cars.
What fuel rail did you use? Big Tuna stopped using E85 after his rail corroded and killed his RC's. It was anodized but I don't think the process used covered the entire passage.
What fuel rail did you use? Big Tuna stopped using E85 after his rail corroded and killed his RC's. It was anodized but I don't think the process used covered the entire passage.
07-25-2008, 04:59 PM
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Re: (Aquafina)
I killed a set of brand new RC's, new aeromotive fuel pump, new aeromotive regulator, then the motor had more issues. After a bad leak down test I pulled the head the machine shop said there was white powder (Aluminum Oxide) was logded in the valve guides. You could clearly see the white powder on the intake valves and port. So I am about 2 grand into fixing E85 damage. The butt kicker is I put the car back on Cam2 110 and it made the exact same power as I did before.
Maybe I got some bad batches from Citgo, I don't know but the damage and possibly exploding decent $ motor wasn't worth the possible extra hp. After my experience a few locals have been dropping injectors ect. They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.
I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing.
Maybe I got some bad batches from Citgo, I don't know but the damage and possibly exploding decent $ motor wasn't worth the possible extra hp. After my experience a few locals have been dropping injectors ect. They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.
I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing.
07-25-2008, 06:50 PM
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Re: (BIGTUNA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIGTUNA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The butt kicker is I put the car back on Cam2 110 and it made the exact same power as I did before.
They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.
I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i would hope that 110 would make more power, as e85 is only an octane of around 103-104, your the first ive heard that had problems running e85
and most people use e-85 because its "pump" gas and cheaper then every other pump gas out there let alone "race" gas
They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.
I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i would hope that 110 would make more power, as e85 is only an octane of around 103-104, your the first ive heard that had problems running e85
and most people use e-85 because its "pump" gas and cheaper then every other pump gas out there let alone "race" gas
07-26-2008, 04:12 AM
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Re: (EARLdaSQUIRREL)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EARLdaSQUIRREL »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and most people use e-85 because its "pump" gas and cheaper then every other pump gas out there let alone "race" gas</TD></TR></TABLE>
Its not that much cheaper maybe save a couple $ tank compared to a race fuel. A motor on E85 burns through the stuff fast, my car was about 4 passes per 1/4 tank of fuel on E85, on Cam2 I get 7-8 passes with the same 1/4 tank. The car runs the same number so neither setup is off on A/F's ect. So your cheap $3(MD price) gallon E85 is really costing almost $6 due to the higher fuel consumption. Cam 2 cost me a little ove $6 a gallon so its no great money savings going with E85.
Just my 2 cents and experience
and most people use e-85 because its "pump" gas and cheaper then every other pump gas out there let alone "race" gas</TD></TR></TABLE>
Its not that much cheaper maybe save a couple $ tank compared to a race fuel. A motor on E85 burns through the stuff fast, my car was about 4 passes per 1/4 tank of fuel on E85, on Cam2 I get 7-8 passes with the same 1/4 tank. The car runs the same number so neither setup is off on A/F's ect. So your cheap $3(MD price) gallon E85 is really costing almost $6 due to the higher fuel consumption. Cam 2 cost me a little ove $6 a gallon so its no great money savings going with E85.
Just my 2 cents and experience
07-26-2008, 06:43 AM
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Re: (BIGTUNA)
are RCs supposed to be ok with e85 ? What metal resists this **** best ? I would imagine if you have problems in the fuel rail, injects, ect. Then the lines and tank would have issues also.
07-26-2008, 08:34 AM
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Re: (lude98SH)
That is a good comparison, thanks for the post! So when tuning e85, you still use the same wide band right? What a/f do you shoot for? Does the wide band still spit out say 13.5 a/f even though it's really higher? The sensor is actually reading excess O2, so if you tune for the same indicated a/f without recalibrating the sensor, then e85 is really using more fuel for the same indicated a/f, right? When you say that gas needed a leaner mixture vs e85, what a/f numbers were you actually getting for each fuel?
07-26-2008, 09:31 AM
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Re: (flyrod)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flyrod »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is a good comparison, thanks for the post! So when tuning e85, you still use the same wide band right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct.
Generally once you get your pump gas a/f's dialed in and you switch to E85, your a/f's would read a lot LEANER. You have to add roughly 20-30% more fuel to achieve the same a/f's. Then from there start adding.subtracting timing to see what happens to your power
Not to threadjack OP, but here's a tune that i did for a customer. stock gsr with blox b's, dsm 450cc's, megan header 2.5" exhaust. pump gas red....E98 blue...i wanted to see what this fuss about e98 was and it made good gains. The a/f's like to be rich on e98 than on pump and it liked 4-5 degress more timing. Overall, if you have access to e85, e98, take advantage of it. If not, like bigtuna said, run c16 and put some timing in it!
Modified by Universal Magnetic at 10:54 AM 7/26/2008
Correct.
Generally once you get your pump gas a/f's dialed in and you switch to E85, your a/f's would read a lot LEANER. You have to add roughly 20-30% more fuel to achieve the same a/f's. Then from there start adding.subtracting timing to see what happens to your power
Not to threadjack OP, but here's a tune that i did for a customer. stock gsr with blox b's, dsm 450cc's, megan header 2.5" exhaust. pump gas red....E98 blue...i wanted to see what this fuss about e98 was and it made good gains. The a/f's like to be rich on e98 than on pump and it liked 4-5 degress more timing. Overall, if you have access to e85, e98, take advantage of it. If not, like bigtuna said, run c16 and put some timing in it!
Modified by Universal Magnetic at 10:54 AM 7/26/2008
07-26-2008, 10:38 AM
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Re: (Universal Magnetic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Universal Magnetic(black star 
) »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Not to threadjack OP,</TD></TR></TABLE>
All good. It's all about flowing the info.
My a/f target on 93 octane with this engine was 13.4 for best power. On E85 12.9 made best power. As to why, i'm not all too sure. With the differences in cylinder temps i would've thought otherwise. It really to to timing really well. I still kept it conservative and a couple points under mbt. I will try to further examine the fuel system after he goes through his first couple tanks of the e85. His setup consists of rc injectors and a bdl fuel. I am doing another car tommorow that i will be able to tear the fuel system apart on after running it for a few tanks. We also will be measuring the mixture level from here on out to make sure that we are using a consistent 85% mix.
< Peakboost- what are you doing in the all motor section!?
>
E85- some sware by it and some sware at it.
) »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to threadjack OP,</TD></TR></TABLE>
All good. It's all about flowing the info.
My a/f target on 93 octane with this engine was 13.4 for best power. On E85 12.9 made best power. As to why, i'm not all too sure. With the differences in cylinder temps i would've thought otherwise. It really to to timing really well. I still kept it conservative and a couple points under mbt. I will try to further examine the fuel system after he goes through his first couple tanks of the e85. His setup consists of rc injectors and a bdl fuel. I am doing another car tommorow that i will be able to tear the fuel system apart on after running it for a few tanks. We also will be measuring the mixture level from here on out to make sure that we are using a consistent 85% mix.
< Peakboost- what are you doing in the all motor section!?
>E85- some sware by it and some sware at it.
07-26-2008, 10:22 PM
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Re: (MikeySpec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All good. It's all about flowing the info.
My a/f target on 93 octane with this engine was 13.4 for best power. On E85 12.9 made best power. As to why, i'm not all too sure. With the differences in cylinder temps i would've thought otherwise. It really to to timing really well. I still kept it conservative and a couple points under mbt. I will try to further examine the fuel system after he goes through his first couple tanks of the e85. His setup consists of rc injectors and a bdl fuel. I am doing another car tommorow that i will be able to tear the fuel system apart on after running it for a few tanks. We also will be measuring the mixture level from here on out to make sure that we are using a consistent 85% mix.
< Peakboost- what are you doing in the all motor section!? >
E85- some sware by it and some sware at it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You have to make the mixture more rich because the energy content of E85 is far less than regular gasoline and or E10 Gasoline. If you were using diesel fuel, you'd have to increase the AFR from 14.7 to something higher because of the higher energy content and because of the fact most diesels inherently are run lean.
Modified by imzjustplayin at 10:58 AM 7/27/2008
My a/f target on 93 octane with this engine was 13.4 for best power. On E85 12.9 made best power. As to why, i'm not all too sure. With the differences in cylinder temps i would've thought otherwise. It really to to timing really well. I still kept it conservative and a couple points under mbt. I will try to further examine the fuel system after he goes through his first couple tanks of the e85. His setup consists of rc injectors and a bdl fuel. I am doing another car tommorow that i will be able to tear the fuel system apart on after running it for a few tanks. We also will be measuring the mixture level from here on out to make sure that we are using a consistent 85% mix.
< Peakboost- what are you doing in the all motor section!?
>E85- some sware by it and some sware at it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You have to make the mixture more rich because the energy content of E85 is far less than regular gasoline and or E10 Gasoline. If you were using diesel fuel, you'd have to increase the AFR from 14.7 to something higher because of the higher energy content and because of the fact most diesels inherently are run lean.
Modified by imzjustplayin at 10:58 AM 7/27/2008
07-27-2008, 09:06 PM
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Re: (imzjustplayin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by imzjustplayin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You have to make the mixture more rich because the energy content of E85 is far less than regular gasoline and or E10 Gasoline. If you were using diesel fuel, you'd have to increase the AFR from 14.7 to something higher because of the higher energy content and because of the fact most diesels inherently are run lean.
Modified by imzjustplayin at 10:58 AM 7/27/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
That definitely makes sense. Yet, i just got off the dyno about 10 minutes ago and completed another 93 to e85 back to back setup that made the best power at the around the same a/f as 93. If anything it would take it leaner more than it would take it rich. This was on a smaller displacement engine with roughly 12.5:1 compression.
You have to make the mixture more rich because the energy content of E85 is far less than regular gasoline and or E10 Gasoline. If you were using diesel fuel, you'd have to increase the AFR from 14.7 to something higher because of the higher energy content and because of the fact most diesels inherently are run lean.
Modified by imzjustplayin at 10:58 AM 7/27/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
That definitely makes sense. Yet, i just got off the dyno about 10 minutes ago and completed another 93 to e85 back to back setup that made the best power at the around the same a/f as 93. If anything it would take it leaner more than it would take it rich. This was on a smaller displacement engine with roughly 12.5:1 compression.
07-28-2008, 07:00 AM
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Re: (BIGTUNA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIGTUNA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I killed a set of brand new RC's, new aeromotive fuel pump, new aeromotive regulator, then the motor had more issues. After a bad leak down test I pulled the head the machine shop said there was white powder (Aluminum Oxide) was logded in the valve guides. You could clearly see the white powder on the intake valves and port. So I am about 2 grand into fixing E85 damage. The butt kicker is I put the car back on Cam2 110 and it made the exact same power as I did before.
Maybe I got some bad batches from Citgo, I don't know but the damage and possibly exploding decent $ motor wasn't worth the possible extra hp. After my experience a few locals have been dropping injectors ect. They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.
I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I am in the middle of a Phase 1 design currently for a complete robotic solution to a product line consisting of Solidified Ethanol Fuel. Although the chemistry is different from E85, here's what I have so far in short.
I have a lot of conflicting information regarding a materials chemical tolerance to an alcohol based product like Ethanol. I have currently found Viton, Buna, Plated CRS 1018, 6 series aluminum and un-passivated SS products deteriorate or swell at different levels due to temperature and chemistry of ethanol bases. EPDM o-rings have shown the most promise in seals. Teflon encapsulated seals have been the short term solution along with Clean room style (Class 10) SS line components. I have at my desk for testing this week the following:
• UHMW
• Delrin
• Teflon PTEE
• 304SS
• 6061 Clear anodized
• 6061 Hard anodized
• 6061 Hard lube anodized (contains PTFE)
• 18/8 SS
• 316 SS
• A2-70 SS
I should have results this week, this may help answer some questions and bring up plenty of new ones if anyone cares about material selection for components. The one thing the automotive field has going is its only using an 85% base.
Maybe I got some bad batches from Citgo, I don't know but the damage and possibly exploding decent $ motor wasn't worth the possible extra hp. After my experience a few locals have been dropping injectors ect. They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.
I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I am in the middle of a Phase 1 design currently for a complete robotic solution to a product line consisting of Solidified Ethanol Fuel. Although the chemistry is different from E85, here's what I have so far in short.
I have a lot of conflicting information regarding a materials chemical tolerance to an alcohol based product like Ethanol. I have currently found Viton, Buna, Plated CRS 1018, 6 series aluminum and un-passivated SS products deteriorate or swell at different levels due to temperature and chemistry of ethanol bases. EPDM o-rings have shown the most promise in seals. Teflon encapsulated seals have been the short term solution along with Clean room style (Class 10) SS line components. I have at my desk for testing this week the following:
• UHMW
• Delrin
• Teflon PTEE
• 304SS
• 6061 Clear anodized
• 6061 Hard anodized
• 6061 Hard lube anodized (contains PTFE)
• 18/8 SS
• 316 SS
• A2-70 SS
I should have results this week, this may help answer some questions and bring up plenty of new ones if anyone cares about material selection for components. The one thing the automotive field has going is its only using an 85% base.
07-29-2008, 12:22 AM
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Re: (MikeySpec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That definitely makes sense. Yet, i just got off the dyno about 10 minutes ago and completed another 93 to e85 back to back setup that made the best power at the around the same a/f as 93. If anything it would take it leaner more than it would take it rich. This was on a smaller displacement engine with roughly 12.5:1 compression. </TD></TR></TABLE>I think that is your problem, you're capable of running octane 93 fuel in there. An engine designed to take advantage of Ethanol would certainly not be capable of running with 93 Octane fuel. Increase the compression ratio to take advantage of the E85 and then we'll talk.
07-29-2008, 12:42 AM
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Re: 93 Octane vs. E85 Dyno Results on a Naturally Aspirated Engine (MikeySpec)
A tad rich ? If you only look at AFR you should be around 10:1 for best power on E85. I'd say you're running it extremely lean...
http://www.experiencefestival....45236
http://www.experiencefestival....45236
07-29-2008, 05:55 AM
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Re: 93 Octane vs. E85 Dyno Results on a Naturally Aspirated Engine (ce)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by imzjustplayin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think that is your problem, you're capable of running octane 93 fuel in there. An engine designed to take advantage of Ethanol would certainly not be capable of running with 93 Octane fuel. Increase the compression ratio to take advantage of the E85 and then we'll talk.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I always wanted to see a back to back test, thank you for sharing
Now i also have to agree with the above statement. i havent seen too many people claiming HUGE power gains with e85 setups. I think that there may be some street cars looking to use it , but the majority of the people that want the info are using race applications.
Not taking anything at all away from your test because we need more like it. I would just like to see an e85 vs. race gas test and see what the outcome is
I always wanted to see a back to back test, thank you for sharing
Now i also have to agree with the above statement. i havent seen too many people claiming HUGE power gains with e85 setups. I think that there may be some street cars looking to use it , but the majority of the people that want the info are using race applications.
Not taking anything at all away from your test because we need more like it. I would just like to see an e85 vs. race gas test and see what the outcome is