stegs

see updated pics here:

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PART/TOOL GATHERING AND PRELIMINARY FITMENT/ASSESSMENT

Top 10 reasons why one would think about doing this:

1.) 88-89 doors are lighter as they are sans an inner impact beam.
2.) Your belted doors are sadly damaged/rusted and it was easier to find earlier year donor doors; as well as you are in need of a complete paint job including door jambs.
3.) You found perfect 88 doors like I did for only $80 bucks!!!!
4.) Your door belt retractors are worn (although you can still get warranty replacements at honda dealerships).
5.) You can weld or want to learn to weld and have tons of free time to waste.
6.) You are dying to have SIR power windows and want to fit the lifter mechanism easily.
7.) You think this is any easy retrofit
8.) Some ******* told you 88 doors fit right up and are plug and play.
9.) See #5
10. You are a victim of #8 and did the door swap but now the wind noise and seal not working have driven you to your ultimate end. You want to save the world one CRX at a time.

Tools needed (at least the ones that I have used):
-Welder and welding skills; related prep and safety equipment
-Metal Snips robust enough to cut crx sheet metal
-Cut-off wizard tool, I used the Cut-off attachment with my air compressor
-Dewalt Drill battery operated 36v
-Dewalt Reciprocating Saw battery operated 36V and eye protection
-General socket set, Ratchet box end wrenches, screwdrivers.

Parts needed (so far):
-88/89 (non door belted) door jamb section as shown below
-88/89 (non door belted) doors
-88/89 (non door belted) inner door interior cards
-88/89 (non door belted), lower plastic door jambs
-Door belted crx obviously
-Pillar seatbelts, (I found newer DC teg belts work fine and match well)
-3 bolts with threads that match seatbelt anchor bolts
-Misc Scrap galvanized metal/washers to reinforce belt anchor points.
-Primer, maybe some por-15 for the rust prone areas.

You will also need to swap the thinner door impact strip from your 90 up car to that of the older style door. Lower body cladding is identical.


THE STORY: My door seat belt retractors were toast and I had an appointment at honda to have them replaced under warranty. I still hated the design and found DC belts in the junkyard for cheap and had to give it a try. An afternoon later I was happy, and then the saga started trying to figure out how I was going to clean up the holes left from the seatbelt hardware removed from the doors. I should've just lived with it, but my 90 doors had issues and one was in need of a re-skin.



So I swapped in the first (long story for a later time) pair of donor 88 doors I had, Couldn't figure out why I experiencing eccessive wind noise at hwy speed and why I kept ripping the door seal, so I studied the jambs and figured this out.

The area outlined below (88 CRX) is different on the non door belted cars:



Question now was, okay by how much. Hard to tell when comparing between cars in junkyards, so I took a chunk of an 88 home with me, only cost 8 bucks:




Removing these wasn't exactly easy folks, if you're not comfortable with a reciprocating (sawzill) saw don't bother, just pay the junkyard to do it. Wear safety glasses unless you want to go blind. My 36 volt dewalt cut through the pillars like butter. I used a 6" long 18pt tooth blade specifically designed for cutting metal. You'll have to be careful with the structure inside the door jamb, its very easy to bend a blade. Ask me how I know

Now that I had the jambs home, it put them side by side with my 90(red):



To me it was easy to see how and why I am leaking air.

Need more convincing?....look at the differences below between the doors:



You can hardly see it, but the door on the right (88)... the seal will rip eventually right beside where the door catch is; this is the area where it separates from making a complete seal at the jamb and becomes pinched. Over time it will rip from the chassis flexing and general opening/closing of the door. From this section north about 10" the seal will not be compressed when shut and essentially will only be along for the ride. Closing the door shut on a dollar bill, it slips right out!!!! The seal doesn't touch from the beltline where the the door glass meets the door metal down to where the seal is ripped.



The upper sash area of the door isn't very tight either, but I plan to take care of that with bondo since I have to fill the holes I welded shut from the upper seatbelt anchor like I did already on the other side:



Not a secret but the USDM CRX that originally had door belts is missing at least 3 critical threaded area in the chassis. You've likely heard this before, its been posted a bunch of times on H-T.

1.) Drivers lower attachment I originally rigged this position temporarily by just drilling into the lower jamb to match the passenger side position. It held well and torqued up decent. You really should weld it in with thick metal. and a bolt so its strong and secure if you value your life. Keep in mind the reason we are doing this is safety since the original door belts sucked.

I feel much better now that I used 1/8 steel scrap and a properly welded nut to it. I then welded it to the surface. Ideally you'd want this on the inside of the door jamb, but you'd have to cut access, and weld and close this up. The method shown it this picture is just as good and passed the hammer on bolt test to see if I could get the weld to fail.



2.) & 3.) The pillar mounted nuts - many ways to fix, I ran for a year with a nut welded to some bar stock that I magically placed in the jamb by threading it up there with some string. This is fine but a pita everytime you need to remove the belt or remove interior panels for other work. To fix it permanently it should be welded. I simply dropped down the nut from before and welded it to the face of the pillar in its proper location. Don't worry much about the added thickness, the plastic cover has about 3/16 or more gap so you will still have room to put in back in place when done.



4.) Tunnel buckle anchor I realize (as you may as well) there is a final area missing an anchor bolt in the center tunnel. I'm running the original 90 buckle that connects to the 90 seat frame with my DC integral belts, so I didn't need to do this.


SIDEBAR - b-pillar to floor spot welds were loosed up. Check yours! The way i figure this will help door alignment and chassis rigidity. Better to fix **** like this while you have the interior gutted.


this was a far shot from of the passengar side

close up passenger side

Drivers side welded up and strong once again!

Back to the door retrofit.

You'll be left with a bunch of useless holes (10 total) in the door jamb when you remove the door belt hardware. For the 88 doors to close you must remove the hook on the lower door sill. I don't have a pic with them on, but here are the holes and how I welded them closed. You could fill with bondo, but welding is way more durable and yield better results (absolutely more permanent).



Buzz the weld smooth after you're done and prep the surface with some rust agent and prime. I used por-15, properly applied and followed with primer. The door jambs are going to be painted when the car goes to the shop.

nuckingfuts

wow I'm not the only crazy one. Thanks for posting this, I need to check and see what year my quarter panels are that I'm installing. Yeah, I want to save the world one crx at a time.

89s1

Great addition to the boards.

This will find its way into the FAQ i'm sure.

kid-honda

iTrader: (2)

There is a impact beam in all US doors. I have not compared them side by side but if I remember correctly they are the same.
Most of the weight is from the increased B piller on the door as it was made thicker and enforced more but that is not much extra weight, most of the weight is the belts themselves.
I dont see this as much of a "weight savings" for those who are still using belts. As in your just moving the weight from door to piller? I mean if they are on the B piller or the door piller you still got that weight in your car? I bet each door counting the belts is only maybe a 10lb difference? I should look into this as I have both sets.
I just wanted them for weight and looks as I will be using harnesses/roll bar and the thought of a "factory" no belt look is nice.

kid-honda

iTrader: (2)

Also speaking of modifying for a good fit I was going to give modding the door a shot, I got a few doors and a few ideas that I think should work.
I am tied up with other parts of the car right now but when I get to the doors whick will be soon I will check back in with what I did and found also.

Slebidia

I've weighted an 88 and 91 door side by side. Both doors bare were within 5 lbs of each other. The majority of the weight is in the seat belts.

kid-honda

iTrader: (2)

So I was right, I have held both them bare and didnt notice much difference.

RockinthEFhatch

Huge play on your part!

I'll be using this in the upcoming days

stegs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kid-honda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is a impact beam in all US doors. I have not compared them side by side but if I remember correctly they are the same.
Most of the weight is from the increased B piller on the door as it was made thicker and enforced more but that is not much extra weight, most of the weight is the belts themselves.
I dont see this as much of a "weight savings" for those who are still using belts. As in your just moving the weight from door to piller? I mean if they are on the B piller or the door piller you still got that weight in your car? I bet each door counting the belts is only maybe a 10lb difference? I should look into this as I have both sets.
I just wanted them for weight and looks as I will be using harnesses/roll bar and the thought of a "factory" no belt look is nice.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll be weighing both doors. I have 5 doors total right now, and they are all loaded with trim, glass etc. There are tons of differences between the doors, the glass is bigger on the 88, which offsets some of the weight saved by removing the seatbelt.

Something many don't think about is that the seat mechanism being moved to the pillar helps weight distribution by removing weight from the center and putting towards the further back. Also the door mounted belt retractors have two one for the lap and one for the shoulder, so going to pillar you loose seatbelt weight as well.

K2e2vin

More weight in the back isn't always good. Also, isn't the weight being moved higher up?

CRXone

BlueCrxNC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by K2e2vin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">More weight in the back isn't always good. Also, isn't the weight being moved higher up?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think that is more than 4-8 inches or so further up (speaking of the retractor)

stegs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by K2e2vin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">More weight in the back isn't always good. Also, isn't the weight being moved higher up?</TD></TR></TABLE>

More weight in back not good? I'll need you to explain that one. A balanced car is most desired, 50/50, that's been bmw's goal forever, and many of the real sporting manufacturers.

If you saw the piller mounting location for the retractor, you'd see it's virtually identical to where the door retractors would be. Maybe I'll take a picture and post it.

The more I think about the belt issue, its more for safety, the door belted cars have notoriously weak retractors which do a poor job pulling the belt snug. Keep in mind conversion to the pillar belts can be a dangerous idea if you don't weld the anchor point properly too! This is all assuming you wear a seatbelt of course.


Modified by stegs at 11:37 AM 6/30/2008

K2e2vin

BMW makes RWD cars(minus the MINI and maybe some others).

50/50 has always been desired...on a RWD car. It's "neutral" performance. Ever look at the balance on some RWD race cars? They sometimes have more weight in the back than in the front, and with FWD cars you have more weight in the front. It all depends on how you want the car to act really.

There's an EXCELLENT reason for this; you need the weight over your wheels for traction. With a 50/50 setup on a RWD car, you have half the weight over the steering wheels and half of the weight on the wheels accelerating the car. You put more weight on the back of your FWD car then you'll be giving the rear more grip so to say. It is indeed about balance; and not just the F/R weight distribution, but weigh over the drive wheels and weigh transfer.

Honda knows about racing, and if they wanted a closer-to-50/50 weight distribution on their FWD cars they would move the engine inside the wheelbase.

AK_CRX

are we really arguing about wether moving seatbelts fore or aft 8" is going to adversely affect handling?? Seriously? Anyways, great thread. I just put the 88 doors on my 90 Si because it's all I could find... I haven't had it on the road enough to notice the wind noise yet though. I think I'd rather deal with wind noise than to permanantly alter my body... BTW, since you have all those door around would you sell me a passenger door window? Got paypal?

K2e2vin

I was arguing the statement that 50/50 is where we want our weight balance at.

Anyways, I don't think moving it a couple inches back or forward would do anything. I know Mitsubishi went with a CF roof in one of their cars and it only saved like 6-8lbs IIRC. Would something like that be negligible?

I'm really interested in seeing the weight difference though between the doors and how much work it'll take to convert.

rsca_crx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slebidia &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've weighted an 88 and 91 door side by side. Both doors bare were within 5 lbs of each other. The majority of the weight is in the seat belts.</TD></TR></TABLE>

they weren't within 5 lbs if the 91 door still had its impact beam and the 88 was as-stock without. i've weighed them too, and i've gutted more than a few doors. the biggest difference is the beam.

<U>https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1398846</U> pics are down, but the numbers are there.

Slebidia

88s have impact beams as well. I weighted both doors stripped down. Within 5 lbs of each other. I just carried a bare 91 door and a bare 88 door across the garage.

AK_CRX

RockinthEFhatch

Did you ever finish?

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

quick question. By replacing the entire quarter panel in my 89 CRX with ones from an 88 CRX, it would cover this entire procedure correct? At that point I'd just need 88 doors and the seatbelts

AK_CRX

That would take care of the wind noise issue, doors would seal up like stock. Still have to do some seatbelt retro fitting... like welding a plate/nut onto the b-pillar for the upper belt attatchment, weld a plate/nut to the floor on drivers and pass. side for lower anchor point. I'm not super pickey about my safety in the event of a collision,(CRX is just a notch safer than a bicycle in an accident so fuh-kit) so I bolted my lower anchor to the rear outer seat rail on both sides. Only works if you are 5'10 or less because it restricts seat sliding rearward.

On a related note to this thread, when you switch to the 88 belts, you have to switch to 88 buckles to match. THERE IS a factory bolt hole location for the passenger side buckle on the side of the floor tunnel with a black plastic screw filling the hole.

stegs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RockinthEFhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you ever finish?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Still working on it. I had a little delay with the HVAC system wiring. Had to tear the dash apart.

I'll be doing some more work tonight and will edit the original post.

stegs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AK_CRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That would take care of the wind noise issue, doors would seal up like stock. Still have to do some seatbelt retro fitting... like welding a plate/nut onto the b-pillar for the upper belt attatchment, weld a plate/nut to the floor on drivers and pass. side for lower anchor point. I'm not super pickey about my safety in the event of a collision,(CRX is just a notch safer than a bicycle in an accident so fuh-kit) so I bolted my lower anchor to the rear outer seat rail on both sides. Only works if you are 5'10 or less because it restricts seat sliding rearward.

On a related note to this thread, when you switch to the 88 belts, you have to switch to 88 buckles to match. THERE IS a factory bolt hole location for the passenger side buckle on the side of the floor tunnel with a black plastic screw filling the hole. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I assumed that most people following this post would've have already researched the belt retrofit procedure since eliminating belted doors would require this. I'm aware of the welding needed on the pillar and drivers lower lap anchor and have already welded 2/3 of those points.

I don't agree with you on using the set rail to floor hole (If I am understanding correctly how you did it) In an accident the seat would probably pull up = not good.

The info you gave on the 88 latch isn't right either, I've been using the 90-91 buckle that attaches to the seat frame bottom for over a year now, they buckle together exactly the same as the 88 ones!

stegs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bambbrose &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">quick question. By replacing the entire quarter panel in my 89 CRX with ones from an 88 CRX, it would cover this entire procedure correct? At that point I'd just need 88 doors and the seatbelts</TD></TR></TABLE>

More or less yes. I'm finding the 90-91 jamb has a high spot, (see above pic) where the seal is tearing).

You'll have to pound/cut it down a little assuming the quarter skin metal goes completely to end where the original pinch weld is in the door jamb.

I'm also finding the b-piller is just a tad different too, so to be perfect you might need a little bondo here. More on this to come.....


Modified by stegs at 1:20 PM 7/16/2008