New to the S2000, but an old school racer/tuner. Anyone here using the HKS F-con EMS?

[Obiwan]

Hello all, Im new to the S2000 but have been building and racing some of the fastest Toyota Supra's in the world for almost 12 years now. I recently picked up a 00' S2000 with 19K miles on it, bone stock, and am wondering if any of you have tried the HKS F-con EMS system on it yet? I know Hondata is very popular and other EMS systems like that but I would love to setup an F-con V-pro or IS on one with modifications that can take advantage of it and see how it does. We have extensive tuning experience with the HKS EMS systems but not alot with Honda. I know HSK makes a plug and play harness for the F-con so that simplifies install down to 20 minutes or so if you have a good mounting spot for the ECU. Anyone used it yet? Once I have some spare time Ill build a custom turbo kit for the S2000 and see what I can squeeze out of it but for now, while work is swamping me, Im enjoying reading what others are doing and what limits you have pushed. So just wanted to pop in and say hello, ask what EMS systems people have tried and what people would like to try. Thanks Ben Phillips PRE-Racing

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[papa5murf]

There might be one or two people running the HKS systems. But due to availability of certified tuners across the country, not too many people go that route.

The most popular are the AEM EMS and the Hondata Kpro. I have run both of these systems on my car (turbo), with mixed results.

I started off with the AEM EMS.
Pros:
- Very easy to install
- Complete stand alone
- Has everything you could ever imagine in the tuning department

Cons:
- Cold stars are iffy at times. You always have to wait for the fuel pump to do its thing before firing her up
- OEM O2 sensors do not work
- Not OBDII compatible
- People (including myself) have had issues where the system would just shut down randomly, whether in traffic or on the track.
- Software is complicating for the average Joe
- Doesn't connect to new computers as it uses a serial port instead of a USB port; however, you can get an adapter from a computer store, but it's just another headache you have to deal with, and it doesn't connect as well, and there's been word that the data gets corrupted at times while transferring through a USB.
- Temperature gauge doesn't work.

Hondata Kpro
Pros:
- Complete stand alone
- All the tuning abilities that you need for a street and track driven car (unless you're going to drag race the car then the AEM EMS would be the better solution).
- Engine start is like OEM
- No issues of the system shutting off
- OBDII compatible (you can pass emissions)
- Software is very easy to use, and anyone should be able to pick it up in about 5 minutes
- Connects to laptops via USB
- All OEM sensors work
- Temperature gauge on the cluster works.

Cons:
- There's a couple things the AEM EMS has over the Kpro in terms of tuning (but nothing that will matter unless you're a competitive drag racer).
- A few sensors need to be changed on the car (AP1) in order to run the system. The OEM sensors and Ap2 valve cover will cost around $275-$300.
- Installation of the system takes longer than the AEM EMS


On my final conclusion after running both systems (the Kpro gave me more power at the same boost level by the way) ... Get the Kpro if it's going to be a daily driver or a street driven car. If you're going to race the car (road track), either Kpro or AEM EMS will do the job fine. If you're going to drag race the car, AEM EMS is the way to go.

[TypeR324]

Great post, thanks for all that info as I have been looking into an EMS as well. Anyone have any experience with the Greddy E-Manage Ultimate. I have searched on the board and found limited info on it. What I did find was back from 06' and it appears as thought AEM and KPro are much more popular.

[Obiwan]

Thanks for the post up. I understand that HKS PRO dealers are in short supply and more so PRO dealers who actually know what there doing... We are PRO dealers and have shops in NM and TX and travel the world tuning EMS systems. However I have never done one on an S2000 and it seems like a great plat form for it.

What sensors have changed between the AP1 and the AP2? Apparently they can't be reconfigured with the software of the Kpro?

There are some other major downs to the AEM EMS that were not listed above:

The AEM has long been known to lose crank signal sync on start up. Sometimes it wont start at all, other times it will start but your timing may be retarded or worse advanced. Ive seen way too many Supra motors lost as a result of this through the years.

Locking injectors wide open and flooding motors is another.

The fact that it's based on an 80's platform they purchased from another company and is limited to wasted spark technology isn't too impressive.

Basically they did there R&D on the public rather then in house.

They have fixed alot of bugs with the system over the last so many years but it's still a system we refuse to install and tune as we will not put our reputation on the line with faulty products. Simple as that.

The HKS system, like all HKS products are rock solid. However there are some features missing for a pure drag car in the V-pro.

Such as:
-individual EGT per cylinder capability
-more aggressive launch control (although the one it uses is super smooth)
-longer internal data logging ability

So for a pure drag car I would rather use a Motec system but the cost is much higher and install is pretty involved.

For a road race or street car however the HKS system is incredible and once dialed in manages itself and protects the motor just like an OEM EMS does. I have been setting up professional road race teams with it in 5 countries since the original systems came out 8 years ago and unless a major change has been made to the car no tuning adjustments have been needed. It's a true set and forget stand alone but only if it's been setup by the right tuner.

As for the E-manage, personally I think the system is pretty lack luster and dated technology wise.

Im on the run today but I appreciate the information you posted Pop Smurf. Ill type more once my day is a bit more complete.

Thanks

[papa5murf]

If you are an HKS F-Con dealer and tuner, then I don't see why you can't go ahead and use it to tune the car as you are already comfortable using the system. If you can tune one car, you should be able to tune another regardless of platform/setup/engine management. I originally wanted to go with the HKS, but due to lack of competent and certified tuners in my area or near vicinity, I opted for the AEM EMS. After a few months of running the system, I was due for emissions and there was no way around it. And as I've done some internal modifications on the motor and the Hondata Kpro was just released and was OBDII compatible, I just jumped to the occasion and got it. My original plan was to go back to the AEM EMS after passing emissions, but I was pleasantly surprised and very happy with the Hondata and the comfort it gave me in piece of mind and a few other luxury things here and there. After about a week of driving with the Kpro, I haven't thought twice of going back to the AEM EMS.

Basically the Kpro for the S2000 is based off/uses a RSX ECU (type s). Due to this a couple sensors were changed apparently or Honda started using new sensors on their cars. So for Ap1 drivers, these are the extra parts/sensors that are needed, they are to my knowledge OEM Ap2 parts (2006 and up) ...

Crank sensor 37500-PZX-003
Crank wheel 13622-PCX-013
TDC sensor 37510-PZX-003
TDC wheel 14112-PCX-003
Valve cover 12310-PCX-020
Drain plug washer (for PCV valve) 94109-14000
PCV valve 17130-PCX-003

I know there are other issues that have arisen with the AEM EMS, but I just mentioned what I personally experienced with the system itself as it's the only thing I can verify and stand behind it 100%. I haven't seen/known anyone to run a Motec system on the S.

As for the Greddy Emanage, I would stay clear of unless you're doing a very light simple setup. The Greddy, regardless of which version, is still a piggy back system. And with all piggy back systems there is always a slight delay in receiving and sending the message to the motor.

When it comes to the S though, I would say about 80% run the AEM EMS, 5% run the Kpro as it's rather new to the market, and the rest run some form of piggy back (Greddy Emanage, Apexi VAFC/Neo). And probably a handful of people using the HKS F-con or the Apexi Power FC.

[Chris.]

from what pap has told me about since he switched to kpro... if i ever decide to do any moderate modding to my motor im going to have to go with kpro

[Obiwan]

Thanks for the reply guys,

I appreciate all the information on the AP1 conversion Papasmurf, thanks for taking the time to write that up. As for tuning, I have no doubt I can tune the car with any system, lol. I just don't have an S2k available that already has forced induction to play with. So I am curious to what people have been using and how they like it, what features there missing that they would want in another EMS, etc.

The K-pro sounds interesting and Ill have to go over the software and get a sense of it's features.

I agree entirely on the E-manage. Besides the delayed response it has fairly limited features and really would have been better if it was introduced in the mid 90's not now. Technology is just way too far beyond that at this point.

Certain piggy backs have their place in multi ECU cars that run Can Buses or K-lines, but not in a single ECU system like the S2k. The HKS F-con IS is made specifically for car's that run the multi ecu systems like IS300's and so many others these days and is exceptionally fast but still limited as you have no REV limit control, etc.

Thanks again for posting up.

[Chris.]

http://www.hondata.com/s2000kpro.html

[GRAF-FITI]

one of the most educated and informative threads in awhile...

take that s2ki

[papa5murf]

Yep no prob. If my car was still in tact, I would let you use my car to test out the HKS. But as it's in shambles right now, that's out of the question.

[ReddotsS2K]

Originally Posted by papa5murf

Yep no prob. If my car was still in tact, I would let you use my car to test out the HKS. But as it's in shambles right now, that's out of the question.

lol sell it to him

[HondaKyle]

Originally Posted by GRAF-FITI

one of the most educated and informative threads in awhile...

take that s2ki

This guy has 3 posts and every one is good... its anew record

[ITRbroham]

WOW.....an '00 S2k with 19k miles!

[Zerileas]

Up here in Calgary these guys built an AP2 w/ F-Con V-Pro

http://www.speedtechracing.com/home.php

I'm pretty sure these guys were the ones to tune it:

http://www.monsterhorsepower.com/

Hope that helps!