Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit?
05-28-2007, 09:15 PM
#1
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Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit?
Edit 7/14/09 - Well, it took another year, but the bugs are worked out and a production kit is out. I have to put my motor back together before I can run it, but I believe that it will be making well over 400 WHP, possibly more toward 500. You can read through the thread and see the process and the many prototypes that I blew up, but for those with a short attention span, here it is:
EDIT: It took a year, but I got it together and got it all working. Skip to page 17 to see what it looks like and see/hear the video clip, which is pretty cool:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...ge=17
I'll keep updating the thread as I up the boost and take it to the track and generally try to destroy it.
I was in Forest Grove, Oregon today at Magnum Powers, getting a new supercharger built for my K24/Frankenstein, and I asked Charles, who makes custom blower cases for Eaton M90 superchargers, how tough it would be to make a blower that spins CCW and would push enough air to efficiently make over 500 WHP. Since Charles has access to the CAD drawings that the cases are machined from, I figured that he would be in the best position to relocate the bolt and locator dowel holes necessary to make a bigger blower spin CCW (big positive displacement blowers all spin CW). He also knows who to call at Embree Specialty Machine to get the rotors switched around on their shafts. Charles thought that it was doable and asked how much interest there would be in a 500+ WHP Supercharger kit for a B-series. Hence the poll.
Here's some background info for those of you who haven't done a lot -w- supercharged Hondas/Acuras. If anyone has any technical questions or relevant input, then please post:
<U>Why Supercharged Hondas Suck 101:</U>
I'm only talking about positive displacement superchargers in this thread, no centrifugical blowers (Vortech, Rotrex, etc), that's a whole other topic.
It's general knowledge that supercharged Hondas don't make much power and have serious heat issues. There are a couple of reasons, mostly having to do with the blowers that are available to put on a Honda. Because Honda motors spin counter-clockwise (CCW), they have to use a CCW-spinning blower, and the biggest available is an Eaton M62, which is made to push about 6 PSI and make around 225 WHP. If you push that much PSI and make around that much WHP, then it works great. If you try to do more, then the efficiency drops off until it stops making power and just makes a lot of heat. It's the same for a small turbo, and anyone that can read a compressor map can figure it out pretty quickly. Just like a turbo, if you use a compressor that is efficient at higher PSI's and flows enough air for more WHP, then it will make more power efficiently, but there aren't any bigger blowers that spin CCW
<U>How To Make a Blower Spin CCW 101</U>
Any blower can be made to spin CCW, you just have to pull the rotor pack, swap the rotors on their shafts (requires a press and a specifig jig), then flip the rotor pack and drive snout over and bolt it back up to the case. On a blower like an Eaton M45 or M62, the bolt holes that hold the drive snout to the case are in a symmetrical pattern, making this a relatively easy job. On anything bigger the bolts are in an assymetrical pattern, making it much more difficult. Material needs to be added to the case, and new bolt and alignment dowel holes need to be drilled to very tight specifications. If the holes are .001" or so off, then the blower may not work right.
A large blower making 15-18 PSI on a built B-series might look something like this (This is an estimate, not an actual dyno chart, it is based on some of my other SC setups and my mad tyte MSPaint skillz):
The blower would mount in the AC compressor location of a B-series (not PS or AC compatible), and would discharge to 2.5" piping so it could be routed to a FMIC. It would be driven by an 8-rib belt off of a custom crank pulley. Boost control would be via a wastegate mounted on the charge pipe, so you could add a turbo boost controller to it to reduce massive torque issues in lower gears, as well as providing some traction control.
Cost-wise, I figure it will look something like this:
150-200 - used Eaton M90 T-bird blower
650 - custom blower case
100 - blower mounting plate
300 - custom crank Pulley
200 - modified belt tensioner
250 - blower inlet and outlet manifolds
<U>1700 - total for kit</U>
It could be a lot less with an unmodified M90, down around 1000, but you wouldn't make the same power as with a modified blower case.
Modified by rmcdaniels at 1:26 PM 6/4/2008
EDIT: It took a year, but I got it together and got it all working. Skip to page 17 to see what it looks like and see/hear the video clip, which is pretty cool:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...ge=17
I'll keep updating the thread as I up the boost and take it to the track and generally try to destroy it.
I was in Forest Grove, Oregon today at Magnum Powers, getting a new supercharger built for my K24/Frankenstein, and I asked Charles, who makes custom blower cases for Eaton M90 superchargers, how tough it would be to make a blower that spins CCW and would push enough air to efficiently make over 500 WHP. Since Charles has access to the CAD drawings that the cases are machined from, I figured that he would be in the best position to relocate the bolt and locator dowel holes necessary to make a bigger blower spin CCW (big positive displacement blowers all spin CW). He also knows who to call at Embree Specialty Machine to get the rotors switched around on their shafts. Charles thought that it was doable and asked how much interest there would be in a 500+ WHP Supercharger kit for a B-series. Hence the poll.
Here's some background info for those of you who haven't done a lot -w- supercharged Hondas/Acuras. If anyone has any technical questions or relevant input, then please post:
<U>Why Supercharged Hondas Suck 101:</U>
I'm only talking about positive displacement superchargers in this thread, no centrifugical blowers (Vortech, Rotrex, etc), that's a whole other topic.
It's general knowledge that supercharged Hondas don't make much power and have serious heat issues. There are a couple of reasons, mostly having to do with the blowers that are available to put on a Honda. Because Honda motors spin counter-clockwise (CCW), they have to use a CCW-spinning blower, and the biggest available is an Eaton M62, which is made to push about 6 PSI and make around 225 WHP. If you push that much PSI and make around that much WHP, then it works great. If you try to do more, then the efficiency drops off until it stops making power and just makes a lot of heat. It's the same for a small turbo, and anyone that can read a compressor map can figure it out pretty quickly. Just like a turbo, if you use a compressor that is efficient at higher PSI's and flows enough air for more WHP, then it will make more power efficiently, but there aren't any bigger blowers that spin CCW
<U>How To Make a Blower Spin CCW 101</U>
Any blower can be made to spin CCW, you just have to pull the rotor pack, swap the rotors on their shafts (requires a press and a specifig jig), then flip the rotor pack and drive snout over and bolt it back up to the case. On a blower like an Eaton M45 or M62, the bolt holes that hold the drive snout to the case are in a symmetrical pattern, making this a relatively easy job. On anything bigger the bolts are in an assymetrical pattern, making it much more difficult. Material needs to be added to the case, and new bolt and alignment dowel holes need to be drilled to very tight specifications. If the holes are .001" or so off, then the blower may not work right.
A large blower making 15-18 PSI on a built B-series might look something like this (This is an estimate, not an actual dyno chart, it is based on some of my other SC setups and my mad tyte MSPaint skillz):
The blower would mount in the AC compressor location of a B-series (not PS or AC compatible), and would discharge to 2.5" piping so it could be routed to a FMIC. It would be driven by an 8-rib belt off of a custom crank pulley. Boost control would be via a wastegate mounted on the charge pipe, so you could add a turbo boost controller to it to reduce massive torque issues in lower gears, as well as providing some traction control.
Cost-wise, I figure it will look something like this:
150-200 - used Eaton M90 T-bird blower
650 - custom blower case
100 - blower mounting plate
300 - custom crank Pulley
200 - modified belt tensioner
250 - blower inlet and outlet manifolds
<U>1700 - total for kit</U>
It could be a lot less with an unmodified M90, down around 1000, but you wouldn't make the same power as with a modified blower case.
Modified by rmcdaniels at 1:26 PM 6/4/2008
Last edited by rmcdaniels; 07-14-2009 at 04:46 PM.
05-28-2007, 09:24 PM
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u just need to show us wat it really is going to do. i'm sure if it makes power like that people would jump on it. just show us wat you got. then we'll give you an answer
05-29-2007, 12:25 AM
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Re: (bigbadboy)
The problem with getting numbers is that CNC work is largely dependant on volume - they like little down time, and retooling the table sucks lots of time. Making 15 of a large part could cut its price by a thrid.
You might want to dig up some other people's success with a large blower on a small motor. I haven't the faintest idea which other camp to look at, but there has to be a big SC'd 4-banger in the toyota or nissan camps as most of them likely spin clockwise. The only one I know of was a twin-charged 4g63, but that used a lysholm blower.
That power output would be insane though. An instant 300lb/tq in a honda? You'd need slicks for the street for sure.
You might want to dig up some other people's success with a large blower on a small motor. I haven't the faintest idea which other camp to look at, but there has to be a big SC'd 4-banger in the toyota or nissan camps as most of them likely spin clockwise. The only one I know of was a twin-charged 4g63, but that used a lysholm blower.
That power output would be insane though. An instant 300lb/tq in a honda? You'd need slicks for the street for sure.
05-29-2007, 01:10 AM
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Re: (HiProfile)
the only advantage of blowers is the instant power, but ppl dont buy them because they make so little power.
if you can make a blower that can have instant power with no lag and really be able to make that kinf of HP and for only $1700
then of course ppl will buy it but i'll believe when i see it
if you can make a blower that can have instant power with no lag and really be able to make that kinf of HP and for only $1700
then of course ppl will buy it but i'll believe when i see it
05-29-2007, 04:29 AM
#6
Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rmcdaniels)
Sounds like an awesome upgrade for us S/C fans. The question will be the mounting and availability of parts if anything breaks. Keep us updated RMC, as long as it makes over 300 WHP (safely and without too many heat issues) with the instant torque to match, I'll keep plugging away with my JRSC. 
05-29-2007, 05:42 AM
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rmcdaniels)
i've been looking into this as well..i'll be getting my counterspun m90 from magnuson products.
i've heard from several sources including eaton and magnuson that the 3.8l ford and gm m90 will not function properly counterspun even if you flip the rotors.
i've heard from several sources including eaton and magnuson that the 3.8l ford and gm m90 will not function properly counterspun even if you flip the rotors.
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05-29-2007, 05:51 AM
#9
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Re: (riceball777)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by riceball777 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the only advantage of blowers is the instant power, but ppl dont buy them because they make so little power.
if you can make a blower that can have instant power with no lag and really be able to make that kinf of HP and for only $1700
then of course ppl will buy it but i'll believe when i see it </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not always, if it is centrifugal(spelling) then it is peak boost at peak rpm.
You really need a roots style to get instant power.
Is this infact a roots style?>
if you can make a blower that can have instant power with no lag and really be able to make that kinf of HP and for only $1700
then of course ppl will buy it but i'll believe when i see it </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not always, if it is centrifugal(spelling) then it is peak boost at peak rpm.
You really need a roots style to get instant power.
Is this infact a roots style?>
05-29-2007, 06:50 AM
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Re: (MidwestAutoWorks)
It's a Roots blower, a modified Eaton M90.
People make big instant power with no lag using Roots blowers all the time, it's just a matter of getting the right blower onto a Honda motor. Charles told me about a modified M90 that he put on an NSX motor (old Comptech kits used an M90, so it was a relatively simple swap) that made over 500 WHP, so I think that it's doable.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've heard from several sources including eaton and magnuson that the 3.8l ford and gm m90 will not function properly counterspun even if you flip the rotors.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're right, there is more to it than that, I just didn't feel like getting into the case offset issue, etc; but assume that we know what needs to be done to make it work correctly and can do it for the prices mentioned. I actually forgot to add the price of swapping the rotors, so I should probably round the estimate up to $2000, just to be safe.
And the AC compressor mount for a SC has been done before on a Civic, but with M45's and M62's. I wish I'd saved a picture of it, but I can't find any.
Thanks to all that are voting, and if there need to be any more poll options, then please let me know.
People make big instant power with no lag using Roots blowers all the time, it's just a matter of getting the right blower onto a Honda motor. Charles told me about a modified M90 that he put on an NSX motor (old Comptech kits used an M90, so it was a relatively simple swap) that made over 500 WHP, so I think that it's doable.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've heard from several sources including eaton and magnuson that the 3.8l ford and gm m90 will not function properly counterspun even if you flip the rotors.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're right, there is more to it than that, I just didn't feel like getting into the case offset issue, etc; but assume that we know what needs to be done to make it work correctly and can do it for the prices mentioned. I actually forgot to add the price of swapping the rotors, so I should probably round the estimate up to $2000, just to be safe.
And the AC compressor mount for a SC has been done before on a Civic, but with M45's and M62's. I wish I'd saved a picture of it, but I can't find any.
Thanks to all that are voting, and if there need to be any more poll options, then please let me know.
05-29-2007, 07:14 AM
#15
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rmcdaniels)
I'd be interested.
Although I'm somewhat concerned about the adabatic efficency at high boost (above 15psi) on the M90. To make 500who you'd need very high boost numbers.
I've seen T-bird run 18psi, but not any higher.
Thus I think 385whp is more reasonable estimate (re: 18psi max) on a 2l motor.
Or 440whp on a k24.
Still big numbers though.
Modified by Veris at 8:25 AM 5/29/2007
Although I'm somewhat concerned about the adabatic efficency at high boost (above 15psi) on the M90. To make 500who you'd need very high boost numbers.
I've seen T-bird run 18psi, but not any higher.
Thus I think 385whp is more reasonable estimate (re: 18psi max) on a 2l motor.
Or 440whp on a k24.
Still big numbers though.
Modified by Veris at 8:25 AM 5/29/2007
05-29-2007, 07:35 AM
#16
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Re: (.dave)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .dave »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damn, that power curve looks like it'd be fun out on a road course. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It is, I mostly run the car on road courses. Here's the unadulterated graph from my old motor from last year:
I'm waiting on some new pistons and I'll have that moved up a little bit, but I think that I am running into the limits of an M62 blower.
</TD></TR></TABLE>It is, I mostly run the car on road courses. Here's the unadulterated graph from my old motor from last year:
I'm waiting on some new pistons and I'll have that moved up a little bit, but I think that I am running into the limits of an M62 blower.
05-29-2007, 09:17 AM
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Re: (rmcdaniels)
Even 300-325 on a stock c1/c5 head would be ****. IIRC, the motor making that graph has more modifications than pamela anderson, right? The only problem would be the MAP sensors - it seems to me people around here would rather curl up and die than change to a 2.5/3bar sensor. Instead, they just want the biggest turbo/blower they can to make good numbers at 10psi.
05-29-2007, 11:09 AM
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (Veris)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Veris »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd be interested.
Although I'm somewhat concerned about the adabatic efficency at high boost (above 15psi) on the M90. To make 500who you'd need very high boost numbers.
I've seen T-bird run 18psi, but not any higher.
Thus I think 385whp is more reasonable estimate (re: 18psi max) on a 2l motor.
Or 440whp on a k24.
Still big numbers though.
Modified by Veris at 8:25 AM 5/29/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>
i agree...the m90 can flow about 550cfm efficiently at 15psi maybe 600 for a gen5 ported and thats only going to get you about 400whp. i'm sure you can overspin it to 20psi but then your intake temps soar and extra boost doesn't yield any more power.
Although I'm somewhat concerned about the adabatic efficency at high boost (above 15psi) on the M90. To make 500who you'd need very high boost numbers.
I've seen T-bird run 18psi, but not any higher.
Thus I think 385whp is more reasonable estimate (re: 18psi max) on a 2l motor.
Or 440whp on a k24.
Still big numbers though.
Modified by Veris at 8:25 AM 5/29/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>
i agree...the m90 can flow about 550cfm efficiently at 15psi maybe 600 for a gen5 ported and thats only going to get you about 400whp. i'm sure you can overspin it to 20psi but then your intake temps soar and extra boost doesn't yield any more power.
05-29-2007, 12:54 PM
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rmcdaniels)
Aren't the new Eaton TVS models supposed to be capable of this, all while bolting up to current manifold designs?
05-29-2007, 02:41 PM
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rmcdaniels)
This sounds pretty awesome. I think the mounting option would be cool considering i cant mount a JRSC in my car without moving the brake booster and all that crap.
05-29-2007, 02:43 PM
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Re: (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The only problem would be the MAP sensors - it seems to me people around here would rather curl up and die than change to a 2.5/3bar sensor. Instead, they just want the biggest turbo/blower they can to make good numbers at 10psi.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Are people really that worried about it? I remember when I was installing my setup I was a little hesitant to cut my wires, but I wasnt about to cry. If I could do it again I would go higher than a 2.5 bar first time around.
If this idea works out for you, Im sure there would be huge intrest. Reliability on these kits needs to be mentioned. This 'partner' of yours, will he offer a warranty on the rebuild?
Are people really that worried about it? I remember when I was installing my setup I was a little hesitant to cut my wires, but I wasnt about to cry. If I could do it again I would go higher than a 2.5 bar first time around.
If this idea works out for you, Im sure there would be huge intrest. Reliability on these kits needs to be mentioned. This 'partner' of yours, will he offer a warranty on the rebuild?
05-29-2007, 02:47 PM
#24
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rochesterricer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rochesterricer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Aren't the new Eaton TVS models supposed to be capable of this, all while bolting up to current manifold designs?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Possibly. They are also more adiabatic efficient above 15psi. However we haven't heard anything more from eaton so who knows when it would be available.
Possibly. They are also more adiabatic efficient above 15psi. However we haven't heard anything more from eaton so who knows when it would be available.
05-29-2007, 03:36 PM
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Re: Anyone interested in a 500+ WHP Supercharger Kit? (rmcdaniels)
Question: If it was really this easy to make 500+ WHP with a supercharger on a 2 liter engine, why haven't we seen any K20s with an M90 yet? (I thought the K series turned CW, and only the B and H turned CCW, but correct me if I'm wrong...)
Also, doesn't the Chevy Cobalt SS Supercharged come with a CW spinning 2 liter? Has anyone slapped an M90 on one of them? Basically, are there any previous examples of an M90 supercharged 2 liter making that kind of power?
Sorry for throwing so much doubt into this thread. To add a positive note, I'm in if you can get the adapter kits produced and it makes anything over 350 WHP on an otherwise stock B18C1.
Also, doesn't the Chevy Cobalt SS Supercharged come with a CW spinning 2 liter? Has anyone slapped an M90 on one of them? Basically, are there any previous examples of an M90 supercharged 2 liter making that kind of power?
Sorry for throwing so much doubt into this thread. To add a positive note, I'm in if you can get the adapter kits produced and it makes anything over 350 WHP on an otherwise stock B18C1.