LS/VTEC definition?

[Toy Civic]

The definition of LS/VTEC can be looked at in a couple ways. I want to see what the Honda / Acura community thinks? Scenario #1: B18A/B LS block, 89mm LS crank, VTEC pistons (cast or forged), VTEC water pump, VTEC oil pump, DOHC VTEC head of your choosing, VTEC oil squirters for cast pistons, and all the other hardware WITH LS/VTEC oil lines etc. Scenario #2: B18C1/5 GSR/Type R block, 89mm LS crank, VTEC pistons (cast or forged), VTEC water pump, VTEC oil pump, DOHC VTEC head of your choosing, VTEC oil squirters for cast pistons, and all the other hardware WITH NO LS/VTEC oil lines etc. Can both be considered LS/VTEC? I've been told that scenario #2 CANNOT be considered LS/VTEC and is just a stroked GSR motor, and that a true LS/VTEC has to have B18A/B stamped on the block. I personally have scenario #2. I prefer a perfect fit between the block and head and no oil line hassles. It also looks like a normal GSR motor, but has the different internals. The other huge benefit is that you will visually pass a California smog test. If a legit smog ref or tester sees a VTEC head on a B18A/B block, it is not legal, and you won't pass. What do you all think?

This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on Honda-Tech!

[Tornadom]

I think your scenario is an easy way to pass CA smog with an extra 2mm stroke.

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by Toy Civic

The definition of LS/VTEC can be looked at in a couple ways. I want to see what the Honda / Acura community thinks?

Scenario #1: B18A/B LS block, 89mm LS crank, VTEC pistons (cast or forged), VTEC water pump, VTEC oil pump, DOHC VTEC head of your choosing, VTEC oil squirters for cast pistons, and all the other hardware WITH LS/VTEC oil lines etc.

Scenario #2: B18C1/5 GSR/Type R block, 89mm LS crank, VTEC pistons (cast or forged), VTEC water pump, VTEC oil pump, DOHC VTEC head of your choosing, VTEC oil squirters for cast pistons, and all the other hardware WITH NO LS/VTEC oil lines etc.

Can both be considered LS/VTEC?

I've been told that scenario #2 CANNOT be considered LS/VTEC and is just a stroked GSR motor, and that a true LS/VTEC has to have B18A/B stamped on the block.

I personally have scenario #2. I prefer a perfect fit between the block and head and no oil line hassles. It also looks like a normal GSR motor, but has the different internals. The other huge benefit is that you will visually pass a California smog test. If a legit smog ref or tester sees a VTEC head on a B18A/B block, it is not legal, and you won't pass.

What do you all think?

Scenario 1: LS/VTEC. LS block+VTEC head=LS/VTEC
Scenario 2: Not LS/VTEC. GSR block+GSR head=Nope, just a bigger stroke with a less ideal rod to stroke ratio. The type of pistons, water pump, crank, other accessories make no difference as to if it is an ls/vtec or not. The type of block and head are the determining factors.

My definition: Wide defintion would be any non-vtec block with a vtec head put on it.

An LS/VTEC can easily pass off as a normal VTEC car...to the not so trained eye.

[Toy Civic]

You cannot point out rod stroke ratio in this particular discussion. The rod stroke ratio is EXACTLY the same between scenario 1 and 2.

The ONLY difference between #1 and #2 is the engine stamp and the extra oil line for the B18A/B motor. The result is EXACTLY the same.

In order to do an LS/VTEC properly you have to yank and disassemble the motor ANYWAY. Why not just go with a B18C VTEC block and avoid any problems with mating, and extra oil lines?

I can only see doing this with an 84mm bore x 89mm stroke B20B/Z motor because it is expensive to sleeve a B18C block. But a LEGIT California smog tester or ref will not pass this motor.

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by Toy Civic

You cannot point out rod stroke ratio in this particular discussion. The rod stroke ratio is EXACTLY the same between scenario 1 and 2.

The ONLY difference between #1 and #2 is the engine stamp and the extra oil line for the B18A/B motor. The result is EXACTLY the same.

In order to do an LS/VTEC properly you have to yank and disassemble the motor ANYWAY. Why not just go with a B18C VTEC block and avoid any problems with mating, and extra oil lines?

I can only see doing this with an 84mm bore x 89mm stroke B20B/Z motor because it is expensive to sleeve a B18C block. But a LEGIT California smog tester or ref will not pass this motor.

Sure I can haha. A GSR with an LS crank in it is not at an ideal rod/stroke ratio compared to the crank that should be in there. The LS's 2mm extra stroke is going to yield virtually no noticable difference over a GSR crank in the real world.

The engine stamp is what makes it an ls/vtec. GSR blocks with a vtec head do not qualify for ls/vtec status.

You don't need to do an 84mm ls/vtec to be worth it. It'll do just fine and not cost and arm and a leg at stock 81mm.....but it's expensive to sleeve any block.

[Toy Civic]

If that's the case, then a VTEC head on a B18B block ALSO doesn't have an ideal rod stroke ratio.

I will disagree with you about the extra 2mm of stroke not improving anything. I've talked to over 5 TOP Honda engine builders who will also disagree with you. We maintain that the extra 2mm of stroke will yield significant results across the powerband over the normal 87mm GSR crank. My motor was built by Mike Laskey of Laskey Racing in Anaheim, CA. If he didn't sign off on it, then I would have stuck to the GSR crank.

I maintain that the definition of LS/VTEC should solely reside with the 89mm crankshaft, and not the engine code stamp. I will also assert that the definition of CRVTEC should also reside only with 84mm bore x 89mm stroke regardless if it is a B20 block or an 84mm sleeved B18 block.

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by Toy Civic

If that's the case, then a VTEC head on a B18B block ALSO doesn't have an ideal rod stroke ratio.

I will disagree with you about the extra 2mm of stroke not improving anything. I've talked to over 5 TOP Honda engine builders who will also disagree with you. We maintain that the extra 2mm of stroke will yield significant results across the powerband over the normal 87mm GSR crank. My motor was built by Mike Laskey of Laskey Racing in Anaheim, CA. If he didn't sign off on it, then I would have stuck to the GSR crank.

I maintain that the definition of LS/VTEC should solely reside with the 89mm crankshaft, and not the engine code stamp. I will also assert that the definition of CRVTEC should also reside only with 84mm bore x 89mm stroke regardless if it is a B20 block or an 84mm sleeved B18 block.

Correct. The B18B does not have an ideal r/s ratio either....but it is an ls/vtec as well in the given situations. The type of head has no impact on the r/s ratio, that's the crank's responsibility.

Could you provide me with some dyno charts showing a LS crank vs GSR crank on the same motor? I'd definitely be interested in seeing the comparison. I'm not saying that it would yield better results, because theoretically it clearly will. I'm just saying that in the real world the differences aren't going to be night and day and they will be negligible.

Question: Say you have a has a GSR block how can it be an LS/VTEC? It'd be better defined as a GSR/VTEC, agreed? Nevertheless, let's get more opinions. You should go ask in the Forced Induction section if they believe LS/VTEC is defined better by 1.) the type of block/head used (i.e. engine stamps) or 2.) selection of crankshaft.

[myfirstdc2]

well how about we keep it simple, and call it like it is. ls/vtec is done with an ls bottom with a vtec top. and for scenario 2, well thats easy. gsr bottom with vtec head. hmmm still a gsr motor. just with a ls crank. i just kinda think its funny that someone would even think a gsr with a vtec head could be a ls/vtec. o.O its kinda like saying well i have a ls block with an eagle crank, and a vtec head. so i guess thats a eagle/vtec. =/ no its still an ls/vtec.

[Toy Civic]

Here's a breakdown of the B series motors:

B16A/B - VTEC (of course), 81mm bore, 77 mm stroke
B17A1 (92-93 GSR) - VTEC, 81mm bore, ??mm stroke
B18A/B - non-VTEC, 81mm bore, 89mm stroke
B18C1/5 - VTEC, 81mm bore, 87mm stroke
B20B/Z - non-VTEC, 84mm bore, 89mm stroke

The engine block deck heights are all the same EXCEPT the B16A which has a shorter one.

That said, I am justifying my point by saying that if a motor has an 81mm bore and an 89mm stroke........AND has a VTEC head, then it can be called LS/VTEC no matter what block code is that one is using. I also maintain that any B series motor with an 84mm bore and 89mm stroke can be called CRVTEC no matter what block code that one is using. Yes there are custom bore sizes and custom stroker cranks. I'm strictly talking about OEM dimensions.

With any B18 block, the bare block rotating assembly geometry for VTEC and non-VTEC are the same. The only differences are in the aluminum casing with the oil passages.

From a traditional standpoint I understand and agree with whole "GSR" and "LS" thing. But since "hybrid" Honda and Acura tuning technology is progressive in nature, the only distinction should be engine size and nothing else......B16, B18, and B20. I normally don't blur any lines between import and domestic, but I will use one comparison here. And that is that a Chevy 350 is still a Chevy 350 no matter how many versions of that 350 are out there. I believe most of them have the same bores and strokes.

Dyno sheets? I just got my motor together and running this past week. I will get dyno tuning done this Monday. I'm thinking at least 180WHP..........probably higher, with:

- Type R cams and valvetrain (Crower retainers)
- CP 10.0:1 compression pistons
- OEM balanced LS crank with Eagle LS rods
- P72 GSR head with stage 1 port and polish
- STR/BDL pro series cam gears
- 67-64mm tapered bore TB and port matched GSR manifold
- OEM 270cc injectors on an STR fuel rail
- AEM fuel pressure regulator
- modified stock airbox with K&N filter
- Comptech header
- high flow cat
- Greddy cat back exhaust.
- Socketed and chipped P72 OBD1 ECU

If I had these exact items, but with an 87mm GSR crank, the HP and torque would be less. Find someone with a dyno sheet and the same items I have with an 87mm crank, and you have your answer.

[Dunc]

I didn't mean your dyno charts. I meant one with a LS crank....then take it out and put a GSR in and redyno it.

Anyways, it is the engine codes that determine whether is can be classified as an LS/VTEC or not. Seriously though, post this in the Forced Induction section and you will hear the same thing.

[SoTexDC2]

Why are you so persistent about calling your motor an LSVtec? I don't understand the hype. I see the reason you did things the way you did, why not take a slightly longer stroke if your rebuilding anyway? Especially if you live in CA, and smog is an issue. Your definitely not the first person to do this, however.

Typically, the "LSVtec" term is used to describe the procedure which converts a non-vtec Integra to vtec. Originally, this consisted of OEM Honda parts. It was an easy bump in power for the base model. As soon as you modify any engine you should refer to it by its displacement. It does not matter what block you start with, there are many possibility's of bore & stroke combinations.

Whatever you do to your car, its still a Honda Civic with a modified B18C1 Integra engine.

Originally Posted by Toy Civic

a Chevy 350 is still a Chevy 350 no matter how many versions of that 350 are out there. I believe most of them have the same bores and strokes.

Using that logic, a B18C1 is always a B18C1 no matter how many versions of that B18C1 are out there.

BTW: Do you copy and paste all your threads between HT and HAN?
http://www.honda-acura.net/for...64566

[Madness]

Who CARES?
Does the ability to say "I have a LS/Vtec" make you a badass in Cali now?
Is it all about "Braggin' Rights"? Sometimes I think there is way too much hype on the West Coast.

You have a stroked GSR.
End of Discussion.

And by the way, in the domestic performance world, a SBC is a SBC, BUT no one would ever refer to a 283, 327, 383, 400, or 406 as a 350 just because it is the same basic block.

[myfirstdc2]

so are u asking the definition of ls/vtec? or u just argueing that u want ur motor to be classifed as ls/vtec? which is not cuz its just a stroked gsr. what a headache cuz after reading your posts,it seems like u just trying to define where ur motor can be classified. why can't u understand that the reason why they call it a ls/vtec is that its a ls bottom with a vtec head. what's all the bs if u take this and take that and no engine stamp this and that. blah blah blah... dude once again ur motor is a stroked gsr. started a gsr ended with a gsr, stroked. period.

[ANONYMOUSdeecee]

#1.....LS BLOCK......VTEC HEAD......LET ME THINK .....LS/VTEC....

#2....GSR BLOCK...LS CRANK......VTEC HEAD.......LETS SEE......A GSR WITH SOME WORK DONE TO IT....

#3......GSR BLOCK........B16 HEAD(VTEC) DUH......POOR MAN'S TYPE-R


THE POINT OF A LS/VTEC IT THE LS BLOCK.....

[Toy Civic]

I am asking for the definition AND arguing on my behalf. I'm not going to back down. No offense to anyone, but I suspect that all the novice naysayers are just repeating what others are writing in various posts and just following tradition.

Again, I maintain that the definition of LS/VTEC should reside in the END result of an 81mm x 89mm shortblock to acheive the 1834 cc that an OEM B18B LS motor has, not strictly the engine block code. Both shortblock scenarios I listed acheive the exact same result. I'm not saying take away the LS/VTEC status of a B18B LS block, I'm just saying add to the defiinition by using an 89mm LS crank in ANY 81mm bore B series shortblock. With the ever progressing evolution of building hybrid B series motors, the lines between B18B and B18C blocks are becoming more blurred and the block codes have much less meaning.

Why am I qualified to write about this subject? I am not a professional builder or mechanic, but just a very experienced Honda novice with a lot of common sense. My day job is the US Navy for the past 16 years. I'm the original owner of my 1995 Civic coupe, and have done "little" things to it over the years. In 2005, I finally had the means and I tore down and rebuilt the ENTIRE car the exact way I wanted. All the ideas were mine, and I fabricated and assembled 70% of the car, engine, and stereo at home. I had the body, paint and engine machining done elsewhere. I'll bet that 90% of the folks who post here also are not professionals and are novices. Here's the link to the pics and slideshow of the Civic.

http://www86.rockyou.com/show_...33606

Definition of a professional = Someone who works for the Honda motor corporation, someone who has been building / racing / modifying / showing Hondas with reliability and precision for years, and the automotive press.

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by Toy Civic

Definition of a professional = Someone who works for the Honda motor corporation, someone who has been building / racing / modifying / showing Hondas with reliability and precision for years, and the automotive press.

I'd be careful to always trust someone's word just because they work for Honda.
Example why:
There was a recent thread just created, but I can't find it (maybe it was deleted). Anyways, the guy was asking if there was such thing as a DC4 because his friend or something that works at a Honda place said there was no such thing. That's about as dumb as you can get....especially coming from a Honda employee's mouth haha.

Ok, since you won't believe the facts from 90% of the Honda-Tech community then PM and ask some of the following people who fit your description of the almighty Honda gods: Mase, boosted hybrid, Tuned1, and Tony1 are to name a few. If those guys don't qualify or you still disagree that you do not have an ls/vtec then the creation of this thread in the first place was kinda pointless. Anyways, you have the answer...so confirm the answer with them and just accept it haha.

[SoTexDC2]

I've seen the slide show of your car before, you posted it on HAN. Its a nice car, IMO. You've definitely done your research, and earned your right to argue this subject.

However, I strongly disagree with your terminology. While the end result is identical to that of a B18A/B block with the same components, it is still a modified, stroked B18C1 block. When your dealing with a custom built setup, the block stamp + mods is the only label. You don't own an Integra and you didn't start with an Integra LS engine. Its a Civic EX. And nothing will change that.

A B18C1 bored to a 2.0 is still a B18C1, regardless of mods. Yes its now a 2.0, but this does not justify it as a B20 - does it?

I think your trying to use "LSVtec" as a catch phrase. This is no different than Type R internals in a GSR, and claiming a B18C5. Mods, money, tuning, and time make power - not catch phrases.

I'm just your typical DIY guy, everything on my car was done by me including a complete build less bore & hone. I'm doing my first paint job in a few weeks, and the car is done. Its not rocket science, but it does take a good mechanical mindset, common sense, time, and money. Respect is deserved from anybody who accomplishes there goals in this hobby.

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by H Twenty Teg

When I see cars for sale, and I see the words LSVTEC, all that means to me is:

STAY THE ****ING HELL AWAY!!!!!

Ouch, I'm hurt haha.

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by H Twenty Teg

Cincinnati, eh? This place sucks so bad, I wouldn't advertise it. Shitty place, shitty people, and shitty shady ass shops.

haha it's not that bad....sounds like someone is ready to move somewhere else. You have bad people no matter where you go in the world.