How to put X brakes on your 96-00 EK Civic (revised) Upgrade Chart - UPDATED

[blackstar]

Originally Posted by Targa250R Something doesn't sound right there. If it is correct, then it sure doesn't sound like a good idea . . . it's way too much rear brake. You don't need vented rotors back there. yea something about the front rotor on the back sounds fishy. i thought the rotor hat offset would be different. i'm doin NSX front brakes so i thought the rears would be a nice match lol. i def wouldnt advise using NSX rear with stock fronts lol

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[Targa250R]

Even with the NSX/Legend fronts, I still wouldn't use NSX rears without an adjustable proportioning valve. With its engine over the rear axle, the NSX has a completely different weight balance than a Civic, and uses the rear tires much harder - which is why it has the beefier rear brakes.

[blackstar]

Originally Posted by Targa250R

Even with the NSX/Legend fronts, I still wouldn't use NSX rears without an adjustable proportioning valve. With its engine over the rear axle, the NSX has a completely different weight balance than a Civi,c and uses the rear tires much harder - which is why it has the beefier rear brakes.

yea that is true, how much are adjustable prop valves? i've already got the parts for the RSX rear upgrade, guess i'll just stick with that.

[shyboi4u]

very nice write up. Now can you explain if there is a difference in caliper piston size? ex: Civic EX piston (54mm) and Integra pistion (57mm).

[Targa250R]

Originally Posted by shyboi4u

very nice write up. Now can you explain if there is a difference in caliper piston size? ex: Civic EX piston (54mm) and Integra pistion (57mm).

There is a difference in piston size for most (though not all) of the calipers.

For example, while the '93-95 Civic EX non-ABS coupe and the '94-01 Integra non-ITR both had 10.3" front rotors, the non-ABS EX used the 16CL14VN calipers which had a smaller piston than the 17CL14VN calipers used on the Integra.

I don't know the exact piston diameters of all the various OEM calipers because I don't have access to a micrometer big enough to measure them. If someone wants to buy me a big micrometer, I'll be glad to start a database

[shyboi4u]

Originally Posted by Targa250R

There is a difference in piston size for most (though not all) of the calipers.

For example, while the '93-95 Civic EX non-ABS coupe and the '94-01 Integra non-ITR both had 10.3" front rotors, the non-ABS EX used the 16CL14VN calipers which had a smaller piston than the 17CL14VN calipers used on the Integra.

I don't know the exact piston diameters of all the various OEM calipers because I don't have access to a micrometer big enough to measure them. If someone wants to buy me a big micrometer, I'll be glad to start a database

Would there be a difference from upgrading a couple mm? From your example stated?

[lkailburn]

IM SO GLAD I FOUND THIS NEW THREAD. i have been trying to find someone to rehost the front brake chart in the old thread ( http://www.honda-tech.com/zero...age=1 ) and then someone linked me here.

this is amazing info, great job!

-Luke

[CJ_2Dr]

bump for some great info

[lkailburn]

"to S2000
Take the EX/Si knuckle (with bearing and hub) and bolt on the knuckles. Get 2004 RSX Type-S rotors re-drilled to fit the 4x100 hub. Get a plastic hammer and carefully bend the dust shield back so that the rotor's back surface does not touch. Take the S2000 calipers, caliper mounting brackets, rotors, and pads and swap them onto the Civic DX"


which rotors do you use? at first you say rsx type s redrilled to 4x100, then you say to take the s200 rotors

-Luke

[BrakeExpert]

You're all welcome. Now time to answer questions.

F20Cteg,
about the prop valve, can you confirm this? Everything I have listed i have confirmed either with pictures, first hand, or a helms book, I can't take word of mouth (screwed my setup in the past.) I'd love more info from ya.

blackstar,
This setup was used on a guy I knew who had a track integra, I don't recall if it was one of those RWD or mid engined ones. (There are only a few as we all know.)

Targa250R, the almight one...

Using the 10.3" front rotor just happens to work, I'm guessing someone just found it dumb luck, but you know Honda interchangability goes. Hell, I have 95 Integra e-brake cables on my 96 civic sedan hooked to RSX rear calipers with CRX e-brake hammers and L-brackets on TSX brackets. Go figure.

I do NOT reccomend NSX rear brakes for most people. Yes they have an awful lot of rear stopping power and are intended to match with only like 99-00 RL front brakes OR BIGGER. When i say bigger, thats bigger with a good sized pad and caliper, not just a spacing big brake kit, using like a DX caliper and 13" rotor or something.

Also remember that yeah, the NSX brake setup is unique. The rear calipers may be smaller, but it did have a larger diameter rotor, i wanna say almost 12" vented for the 91, tho it may have been the 97, i recall the NSX-R having 12.6" back, so i forget wich.

Targa250R again,
The piston size of a Integra/ITR caliper piston is 57mm, about 2.25". When i measured an EX civic caliper, the piston was about 2" and the DX civic caliper piston is about 1.75" so yes there are differences. The 5410 Caliper (EG EF and EK civics with stock 10.3" fronts) has that 2" piston. the 17CL calipers have a 2.25" (57mm piston).

Remember piston size is more for calculating fluid flow, like in master cylinder choice.

lkailburn,
I will edit that. You use the RSX Type-S rotors, because I haven't confirmed dimensions of the front S2k rotor. I assume it wouldn't be as perfect of a fit because it has a larger bore, the S2k being a RWD, not FWD, so theres no axle, just a cap.

I'm not just 'rehosting' the old brake chart by the way.....lets just say if ya need machined brake parts or stock ones, IM me.

[B18CivicEH2]

awsome info...should be added to the FAQ's if it still hasnt been done...

[B18CivicEH2]

oh wait...i think it has been

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1513752

[Targa250R]

Originally Posted by Redline57

When i measured an EX civic caliper, the piston was about 2"

Do you happen to remember exactly the year and model of EX that the caliper was from? There are a couple of different EX calipers from '90-00, depending on year and 2dr/4dr. I'd like to keep piston sizes on hand for future reference.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">F20Cteg,
about the prop valve, can you confirm this? Everything I have listed i have confirmed either with pictures, first hand, or a helms book, I can't take word of mouth (screwed my setup in the past.)</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can confirm it. According to the Honda parts catalog, the proportioning valve found on the '99-00 Si (46210-S04-902) is also found on the '96-00 HX 2dr, CX 3dr, and DX 2dr/3dr.

Other proportioning valves from '96-00
- 46210-S04-912 for DX 4dr and LX 4dr
- 46210-S04-962 for EX 2dr
- 46210-S04-812 for LX-ABS 4dr
- 46210-S04-852 for EX-ABS 2dr/4dr

These should all be correct. If anyone knows of an omission or error, let me know.

[BrakeExpert]

When i say "EX caliper" I'm refering to the one for the 10.3" brakes. This should be the same for all 88-00 Civics. There are some EX models for the EG that had stock 9.5" front brakes I've been told, and thus these are the smaller piston calipers, and smaller calipers altogether. The 9.5" brakes have all the same caliper, its bracket does not have a hangar in front. I have not unjumbled the EG chassis specs yet, i can tell you the only 96-00 civics with a 2" front piston are the EX and Si models. This is for US models only, no conformation for any foreign market except the Canadian SiR (EK chassis has the same 10.3" front brakes as these, so same 2" piston.)

Interesting about the prop valve.

[F20Cteg]

Originally Posted by Redline57

You're all welcome. Now time to answer questions.

F20Cteg,
about the prop valve, can you confirm this? Everything I have listed i have confirmed either with pictures, first hand, or a helms book, I can't take word of mouth (screwed my setup in the past.) I'd love more info from ya.

They are the same part number from honda. Go to any honda parts website or a local dealer. Same part #.

[CJ_2Dr]

i got a question i had a DC crashed it. i am buying my friends DA turbo, then i am buying a clean EF shell, wanted to know if the DC front disc and rotors and calipers will fit on a EF hub or knuckle b/c i do not have the DC knuckles
adn also is the DA ls direct drop in to a EF hatch???? thanks in advance

[BrakeExpert]

I guess I wasn't clear enough?
That EF, if it came with the stock 10.3" front brakes (like the SI model) then the DC front calipers will go on, and the front rotors would be the same, so no need for em. If the EF is a DX model and came with 9.5" front brakes, then no, you'd need different steering knuckles, like from a 1991 Civic EX sedan. If you have the DX front knuckles on your EF, you can do that setup refered to as &gt;94-01 Integra front brakes. If you should need these machined brakes, PM me.

Redarding the motor, check the FAQ in this forum. There are many posts on this, and in the FAQ you should get all the information you need, in fact if you search around, there is most likely a walkthrough of it. It will bolt in because the EF chassis housed a B-series before. This is a brake thread, so if ya want engine information either check the EF forum for the specifics on engine swapping, or PM me for more details and I'll help ya.

[Targa250R]

Originally Posted by Redline57

When i say "EX caliper" I'm refering to the one for the 10.3" brakes. This should be the same for all 88-00 Civics.

It isn't. There are at least 2 different calipers (with different piston diameters) for 10.3" brakes, and possibly more. Offhand, I can readily think of the 16CL14VN and the 17CL14VN.

Originally Posted by CJ_2Dr

i got a question i had a DC crashed it. i am buying my friends DA turbo, then i am buying a clean EF shell, wanted to know if the DC front disc and rotors and calipers will fit on a EF hub or knuckle b/c i do not have the DC knuckles

No.

Originally Posted by Redline57

That EF, if it came with the stock 10.3" front brakes (like the SI model) then the DC front calipers will go on, and the front rotors would be the same, so no need for em.

The '89-91 Civic Si and '88-91 CRX Si did NOT have 10.3" front brakes. The '90-91 EX 4dr was the only USDM '88-91 Civic with 10.3" fronts.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Redarding the motor, check the FAQ in this forum. There are many posts on this, and in the FAQ you should get all the information you need, in fact if you search around, there is most likely a walkthrough of it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
He'd actually want to search and check FAQs in the CRX / EF Civic forum.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It will bolt in because the EF chassis housed a B-series before.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's not a direct bolt-in, because he wouldn't have an EF8 or EF9 chassis (which were the only cars of that generation to have a B-series) since they were never sold in North America. He would have an ED chassis. At the very minimum, they require a special mount kit and shift linkage to use a B-series. STD/HF cars require DX/Si or EX steering knuckles for a B-series because the axle splines are different. DPFI cars (STD, DX, LX) require a wiring harness conversion to run an MPFI system.

[CJ_2Dr]

Targa250R- your info was alot more helpful thank you,
Redline57 - i was just asking a damn question all u could have said was check the other forum and not be a dick but thanks for your shit anyway a simple no would have been enough.

[Targa250R]

Originally Posted by CJ_2Dr

Redline57 - i was just asking a damn question all u could have said was check the other forum and not be a dick but thanks for your shit anyway a simple no would have been enough.

He wasn't really being nasty. The tone of that post was a helpful one.

[BrakeExpert]

Targa, can you find me some sort of proof? The 17CL14VN caliper, as I recall, has a 57mm piston, which is Integra sized. I have seen this on the 88 Accord LX-i, but not on a civic. I know of no civic pre-7th gen that had a 57mm piston on the front, that would give it a 15/16" master cylinder, and though I heard the EF came with this, for some reason i was told it had a 2" piston up front and regular 9.4" rear discs. Please note in the thread you posted me to, the rear disc is 9.4" not 9.5".

I am an EK expert, please everyone dont take what i say about EFs and EGs for 100%.

CJ_2Dr, I'm not being a dick, sorry for sounding so. I was trying to keep this thread on topic. I know I'm being anal about it, but there are so many threads that get off topic, and I want the first page of this thread to be a true end all with only 100% verifiable facts. There was a be all end all X brakes on Y car thread that just got confusing once, and you still had to scroll through over 12 pages to ensure that facts were confirmed.

Any pics of EG and EF brakes would be appreciated!!!

I do know that the CRX HF has even smaller brakes than the 9.5" brakes on EK civics. The 2nd gen CRX HF does use vented rotors in the front.

Targa again, ok so all EG chassis'd civics that are EX models have 10.3" front brakes, it was just that all this ABS talk people said about confused me, as my friends 94 EX coupe with ABS has 10.3" fronts but rear drums.

To clarify again
When i say EF, i mean 88-91 Civic suspension.
EG is 92-95 Civic suspension, and EK is 96-00 Civic suspension. I know the Canadian SiR is not an "EK9" but im using these terms in reference to the suspension geometry. Ya get what I mean, right? This is just for generation reference, not specific chassis. My EJ6 I refer to as an EK just for simplicity's sake. Its a sedan, not an EK9 with a B-series from Japan, its a 4 door wit a y7 that was built in Alliston.

[Targa250R]

Originally Posted by Redline57

The 17CL14VN caliper, as I recall, has a 57mm piston, which is Integra sized.

The 17CL14VN is the actual '90-01 Integra (except ITR) caliper. They were all the same. They also all used the 7CLP13S rears.

The ITR used 11.1" fronts with 17CL15VN calipers and 10.2" rears with 9CLP14S calipers.

As far as piston diameter goes - like I said, I don't have a micrometer large enough to measure brake caliper pistons, otherwise I'd have a database of diameters. I have all of the calipers in stock here - just no way to measure them accurately enough. Eyeballing it with a ruler can be up to 1mm off, because there is no center point of the piston to reference to (unless I pulled them out, but I don't have time for all that).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have seen this on the 88 Accord LX-i, but not on a civic.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have G3 Accord LX-i calipers boxed up here, but I've never looked at them. You've got my curiosity going - I'll probably check them out tomorrow.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know of no civic pre-7th gen that had a 57mm piston on the front, that would give it a 15/16" master cylinder, and though I heard the EF came with this, for some reason i was told it had a 2" piston up front and regular 9.4" rear discs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Other cars equipped with the 17CL14VN front calipers included the '90-91 Civic EX 4dr, and all '92-95 Civics with ABS ('92-95 EX-ABS 4dr, '94-95 EX-ABS 2dr, '94 Si-ABS 3dr, '94-95 LX-ABS 4dr). All of these cars did indeed have a 15/16" master cylinder. There may be more cars with these calipers, but I am not aware of them.

The only USDM "EF" chassis car that had rear discs was the '90-91 CRX Si (actually an ED9). It had 9.5" fronts and used 16CL13VN calipers which had a "hanger" on the bracket. These calipers were also found on the '88-90 Prelude S model.

The only USDM "EF" chassis car that had 10.3" fronts was the '90-91 EX 4dr (ED4). As I mentioned above, it had the same 17CL14VN calipers as '90+ Integra non-ITR and used a 15/16" master cylinder. It had rear drums.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please note in the thread you posted me to, the rear disc is 9.4" not 9.5".</TD></TR></TABLE>
They're 239mm, so you're right - 9.4". I've just been in a habit of posting 9.5"; I'll correct that in future posts.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do know that the CRX HF has even smaller brakes than the 9.5" brakes on EK civics. The 2nd gen CRX HF does use vented rotors in the front.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, that's correct. The '88-91 CRX HF and '88-91 Civic STD both used the same tiny vented 231mm/9.1" rotors (which are also found on the Insight and various '84-87 Civic/CRX models), as opposed to the 242mm/9.5" rotors found on '88-91 DX/LX/Si models (and most newer Civics up to '00). The axle splines in the hub are different, so only HF/STD axles can be used with them - this is why DX/LX/Si or EX hubs are required for a B-series swap in an HF or STD.

Pre-'88 HFs had the solid front rotors and magnesium rear drums.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Targa again, ok so all EG chassis'd civics that are EX models have 10.3" front brakes</TD></TR></TABLE>
All '90-05 EXes have 10.3" fronts. Not all of them have the same calipers, however.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it was just that all this ABS talk people said about confused me, as my friends 94 EX coupe with ABS has 10.3" fronts but rear drums.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your friend's '94 EX coupe is a non-ABS model if it has rear drums. All '92-95 Civics with ABS had the rear discs. His EX non-ABS coupe actually has the 16CL14VN fronts with the smaller pistons.

I actually used to have one of those - a '93 EX 2dr. ABS wasn't available in '93. My car had 10.3" front rotors, 16CL14VN calipers, rear drums, and a 7/8" master cylinder. It took a FMSI #D621 pads, as opposed to the 17CL14VN calipers on Integras and ABS G5 Civics which took FMSI #D617 pads.

The two cars that did come with the 16CL14VN calipers for certain are the '93-95 EX 2dr non-ABS, and the '94-97 del Sol VTEC (not Si). There may have been more cars (other than '88-00 Civic/CRX/del Sol and '90-01 Integra) equipped with these, but I'm not aware of them.

BTW, I got your PM. I'll respond later on tonight.

[BrakeExpert]

One other thing.

The 17CL14VN stamp....90-93 Integra calipers are NOT the same as 94-01 Integra (exc. ITR) calipers. They both have 17CL14VN on the caliper body, and though they caliper bodies themselves may be the same, note they take different pads and use different retainer clips, making me think the brackets are different.

[Targa250R]

Originally Posted by Redline57

One other thing.

The 17CL14VN stamp....90-93 Integra calipers are NOT the same as 94-01 Integra (exc. ITR) calipers. They both have 17CL14VN on the caliper body, and though they caliper bodies themselves may be the same, note they take different pads and use different retainer clips, making me think the brackets are different.

Yes, that's correct. The bracket itself determines which pads the car takes, not necessarily the caliper body.

'90-93 Integra and '90-91 Civic EX use the same bracket and take the FMSI #D409 pad. '94+ Integra and '92-95 Civic ABS use the same bracket and take a D617 pad.

'96-00 Civic EX and Si take a D465 pad. Are those calipers marked? I don't have any pictures of my old EM1's calipers, and I don't recall what numbers they had on them.

[BrakeExpert]

the 96-00 Civic EX and 99-00 Civic Si has a marking on the caliper bracket. On the thin side of the back of the bracket says "5410" where like the ITR bracket says "23T". The bracket looks a bit sharper and less rounded and pronounced than that of the 17CL14VN calipers. The 99-00 Si master cylinder is a findlex unit i believe, not nissin, and i believe findlex made the calipers for that car as well.

Very interesting that the 92-95 Civic 10.3" brakes take that caliper, I'll have to go take pics at the local junkyard and research these.