MOE@Hyper16Valve

iTrader: (2)

Good **** I'm just putting it there GE...

oldskool teggy

i use OEM b18b HG

90CivcHatch

Hey man i have a few questions to ask you im doing a full build on a LS/VTEC turbo what oil and breakin sequence should i do you think i like everything i see in your write up your obviously very intellegant on this subject lol lemme know please

SiR Inspired ED7

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Golden Eagle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ether gasket will work fine we just prefer the vtec gasket </TD></TR></TABLE>

is there a spicific reason y you guys choose a vtec head gasket over a regular ls/b20??

h22crxpwr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiR Inspired ED7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

is there a spicific reason y you guys choose a vtec head gasket over a regular ls/b20??

</TD></TR></TABLE>

This was only 1 page back...

0Golden Eagle

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiR Inspired ED7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

is there a spicific reason y you guys choose a vtec head gasket over a regular ls/b20??

</TD></TR></TABLE> reason posted above

bambam

Let me set a few things straight. The gasket argument is not directed towards OEM headgaskets vs. non-OEM gaskets. GE uses and sells OEM gaskets in their kits. I see some people on here saying they prefer OEM headgaskets over GE headgaskets which is a bunk statement because GE gaskets ARE OEM. What the real argument here is VTEC headgasket Vs. NON-VTEC headgasket for the sake of performing a B-series vtec head swap on a B-series non-vtec block aka LSVTEC or B20VTEC/CRVTEC.

No matter what, the coolant and oil ports on the vtec head will never match up with the coolant and oil ports on a vtec block. There's no way to get around this, that's just the way honda designed these particular motors. With that said, there are two ways to mate your vtec head to your non-vtec block.
Those options include:
1. Using a vtec headgasket which is designed to match the coolant and oil ports on the vtec head (which GE supplies in their kits).
2. Using an off the shelf OEM non-vtec headgasket which is designed to match the coolant and oil ports on the block.

The question is, which one is better? Now, there are experienced builders around the world that will tell you that one is right over the other. There have been cases of both types of headgaskets leaking in builds. This may not always be attributed to using one headgasket over the other, but attributed to other underlying problems such as not torquing the head properly, or having a warped block or head, leading the consumer or assembler to believe that the headgasket is at fault, when in fact it is not.

Now, we'll get to my opinion. I stand by my suggestion 100% on using a non-vtec headgasket in these types of builds. I can say without a doubt that the non-vtec headgasket has never leaked in any builds I have ever done for a customer or in any of my own motors. That may or may not be because I am using the non-vtec headgasket, but may be attributed more to the fact that I always properly torque my heads down in the proper sequence with the proper torque with the proper lubrication. I always also ensure the head and block are perfectly level, and if not, are corrected by a machine shop to ensure they are.

As you can see by looking at GE's supplied pictures above, no matter what headgasket you use, it is going to partially block the oil return passages. I don't know why honda did this, but it is safe to say that it is okay for oil returning to the oil pan to make love to the gasket on it's way down.

What frightens me here though is if you look at picture #4, there are areas of the block that are extremely exposed on the oil return passages, some that are damn near close to the edge of the block itself. When using a non-vtec gasket, these exposed areas are close to none. In image #1 above, golden eagle states that there are two coolant passages on the head that are partially blocked (although one is almost not worth mentioning). Although this is a true statement, the LS gasket coolant passes are close to, if not more than 50% larger in surface area than the vtec gasket, thereby negating any possible ill-effects of that partially covered coolant passage. These larger coolant passages I can only assume are beneficial (hard to prove). I will agree with GE on one thing; depending on which LS or B20 gasket you use (aftermarket, OEM, ebay, oem replica), you will need to remove the copper o-rings. This may be the reason some people say they experience leaks with non-vtec headgaskets.

It may be wrong of me to say that GE gaskets are wrong, but using simple automotive understanding, you can see why I make this statement. I believe that GE is an awesome company and they make some of the best automotive components in the world. Their parts come well machined and they appear to have great quality control. I think that the rest of their kit is absolutely the best lsvtec conversion kit you can buy. I especially like their sandwich adapter that is included...and their dowel pins fit like a glove unlike the ones included in many other lsvtec conversion kits.

I think most people would agree also, that even if GE themselves realized that they were supplying the wrong headgaskets all this time, it would not be beneficial to them to publicly say so....at least not at this point. They've sold wayyyy too many of these kits to be able to withdraw their statement at any point in time, that vtec headgasket is the correct one to use. It would just be bad for business all over. So understand, that Golden Eagle, or any company for that matter is going to stand behind their products 100% no matter what. I would too; it's just business.

My 2 cents.


Modified by bambam at 8:35 PM 2/28/2008

Brick Top

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bambam &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


What frightens me here though is if you look at picture #4, there are areas of the block that are extremely exposed on the oil return passages, some that are damn near close to the edge of the block itself. When using a non-vtec gasket, these exposed areas are close to none. In image #1 above, golden eagle states that there are two coolant passages on the head that are partially blocked (although one is almost not worth mentioning). Although this is a true statement, the LS gasket coolant passes are close to, if not more than 50% larger in surface area than the vtec gasket, thereby negating any possible ill-effects of that partially covered coolant passage. These larger coolant passages I can only assume are beneficial (hard to prove). I will agree with GE on one thing; depending on which LS or B20 gasket you use (aftermarket, OEM, ebay, oem replica), you will need to remove the copper o-rings. This may be the reason some people say they experience leaks with non-vtec headgaskets. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you're right. and the pictures show it all

Chris.B.

Quik ?... You said the stock number on the two step colder plugs was #7173(R5671A-8).. On your box of NGKs the stock number says #4554. I picked up a couple sets of plugs stock #7173(R5672A-8).. Did I get the wrong plugs? Compression will be 12.0:1+..

Thanks,
Chris

MOE@Hyper16Valve

iTrader: (2)

Good job BAM BAM with your post ...

acydphryck

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MOE@Hyper16Valve &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good job BAM BAM with your post ...

LET it be know...</TD></TR></TABLE>

WTH?? lol!!!! can't believe you're online at 7:10am...bump this post up ttt
great write up and thanks for clearing up the HG issue.

clip of my motor's dyno pass @ Prostreet Import ( i believe it was pass #58 of 163)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4UDkL4o_M8

CerealKiller

^^^^^^^^^^
numbers?

jkeno112

i believe thats the motor that made 244 on Eugene's Dyno...Right Happy???

acydphryck

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CerealKiller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">^^^^^^^^^^
numbers?</TD></TR></TABLE>

have at it s0n...lol!!! i'm surprised you haven't seen this dyno sheet on here

91 octane pump gas...2 year old motor now...still running



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jkeno112 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i believe thats the motor that made 244 on Eugene's Dyno...Right Happy???</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup yup....i have a 246 whp pass dyno sheet somewhere...gotta look for it

0Golden Eagle

1st I would like to say that if we realized we were using the wrong gaskets we would be the first to admit it and change our kits.
2nd we have been doing ls vtec motors for at least 10 years, from the first one we did in my friends garage, till now. we have always felt that the vtec gasket was the better choice. we have studied it and have tried both. the vtec gaskets work the best and you do not have to waste your time drilling rivets out.
3rd when using the vtec gasket it matches the head and does not block off anything the head needs.
4th when you put the vtec gasket on the block you will see the oil returns are partially blocked just like the ls gasket on the vtec head but the difference is with the vtec gasket it is not blocking anything the head needs. all coolant ports are free and clear and the oil will return with out hitting the gasket at all.
5 with the ls gasket you are blocking one coolant port almost all the way off. the vtec gasket does not have this problem at all. so why not use the gasket that blocks nothing that the head needs? like i said before you can use either gasket. we never said you can't use the ls gasket. to say the ge gasket is the wrong gasket when we sell 50+ gaskets a week most for ls or b20 vtec kits is a untrue statement. if you said in your post that you prefer the ls gasket but either will work we would not even be in here defending ourselves. you make these untrue statements that consumers read and question us over and over again. so we had to do this write up, so we could prove our point. its funny, team Bergenhotz, Sav Leone and Chuck Seitsinger to name a few, use our kits with our gaskets. all of them are pro engine builders and agree with us.

bergenholtzracing

I've been using Golden Eagle complete VTEC conversion kits with absolutely no problems at all. Since we R & D the kit in 1999. I would have complete confidencxe in the complete Golden Eagle product line. We have been with them since 1999 and have had zero problems. Golden Eagle #1!

mattslegend1

Chuck S. has been using the vtec gasket for almost ten years now and we have never had a problem with it.Im sure from what you are saying the non vtec gasket works too,but from our experience at Alternative Motorsports Golden eagle vtec gasket .

bambam

GE, I agree wholely with the fact that you make great products. I recommend to all my customers and friends that they use your kit. Like I said, I think it's the best, well put together, complete kit on the market today. All of those teams you mentioned that use the headgasket you supply have had success with it. I agree...the proof is in their numbers as anyone can see. But it is in my honest opinion that the vtec headgasket is more prone to leak than the non-vtec headgasket in regards to this application. Truthfully, there is no 100% perfect headgasket out there just because a vtec head was never intended to be mated to a non-vtec block. Many consumers get stuck when purchasing your kit because they prefer the non-vtec gasket over the LS gasket for whatever reason. Many of those same consumers share the same opinion that I do, in that the non-vtec gasket is the better gasket to use for reasons I outlined earlier. Using the pictures you posted, you can CLEARLY see that there are areas on the oil return path, when using the vtec headgasket, that are damn near the edge of the block itself. I'm not happy with that. And I don't suspect many consumers are, or would be happy with that either. As for the coolant passages on the non-vtec headgasket, although you can see that one of those passages is partially blocked when lined up to a vtec head, they are MUCH larger in size than the vtec headgasket. This would negate the effect of any blockage because plenty of coolant is still getting to the head, if not more in any given time period than when using a vtec headgasket. You also say that oil will not hit the gasket when it returns to the oil pan "at all". That is an untrue statement. Just look at your pictures.

Above, you say that you "felt" that the vtec gasket was the better choice. And that's fine. It's just an opinion. We are all free here to express our opinions on which headgasket is the better choice. Just as you mentioned all of the teams that run your gasket, there are an abundant amount of teams with equal success that run the non-vtec gasket and will completely stand behind their opinion that it is the right gasket as well. There are even more reputable, more knowledgable people on here that stand behind running the non-vtec gasket. Besides, just because some of the big teams run the vtec gasket, doesn't mean that it is right....and it certainly doesn't mean that they are more knowledgable. It just means that they have more money to play with than most. I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying here, but I put my motors together using automotive theory and knowledge, not money.

The best thing to do here is let the consumer decide on which gasket they want to use. Just using the pictures you posted above, I can easily decide on which gasket I think is the better gasket...and that's the non-vtec one. I will stand firm on my statement that the non-vtec gasket is the correct gasket to use. With the argument about the copper o-rings...well that has never been an issue for me. It never takes any more of my time to remove those than it does to scratch my ***.

Now we'll get on to the point of experience. You're right, you beat me there. I'm sure you guys over there have assembled way more engines than I have which is probably approaching close to 100 at this point. But what I do have out there, is 100's of people if not 1000's that have somehow found their way to this writeup, followed it to a "T", and have had great success. Just search for "how to build a reliable lsvtec" in google. It is the first post that you will find, in the worlds most popular search engine. Even if you choose to search for "lsvtec" or "building an lsvtec" or "how to build an lsvtec"...all searches will lead you to this thread on the first page. I do have a great understanding of engines and the electronics that run them. I have such a great understanding that I can tell you what each and every molecule of air and fuel is doing, why it's doing it, where it's going, how the ecu aids in those decisions, and the effects of those decisions on the operation and power output of an engine. In regards to hondas/acuras, I can even tell you what each and every signal to and from the ecu is doing, and even which color wire and pin it is doing it from without looking it up. So, that's the experience I have. My goal is not to earn a dollar off of the honda/acura community, but to spread knowledge and offer help whenever possible. That's all that I ever intended to do when I wrote this guide. We both have different opinions, and that's fine...but it's not really a fair argument because you have alot to gain here, where I have little.

Again, I apologize for any ill-effects you've experienced from my suggestion to use the non-vtec headgasket. However, I can't be forced to make a statement that it is okay to use either gasket, when I do not share that opinion. Can you use a vtec gasket? Yes, plain and simple. The important things are there no matter which gasket you use, and that is that the bores and headstud holes are in the same location. But, I do get bombarded with tons of questions every day about which gasket is the better one to use, and I will freely express my opinion of why in the same way as I have done so here.

BTW, I currently use and have used your products. It's top-notch stuff. I only use products in my motors that perform. I don't go out and buy the most expensive parts because that's not what makes a motor make power. It's the theory and design behind products that make one better over the other. It's like comparing a DC sports header, which design has little to do with testing and theory to an SMSP header, which has its design based off of real-world testing and theory. Is it a better header because it's more expensive? No. But it is because of the design and testing it went through. So, don't get upset because I disagree with you on this gasket issue. It's not your fault. You didn't design the gaskets...there genuine honda units. You're just the third party that's modifying them and supplying them for consumer use. If you really want your kits to fly off the shelf, go and design and test a headgasket that perfectly mates the vtec head to the vtec block, without any issues. That's what we all want here.



-bambam

0streetrays

We've sold and used Golden Eagle headgaskets and VTEC conversion kits for years without any problems that didn't stem from the customer.

The only time we've ever had any issues is when a customer has done the work themselves and didn't get a warped head machined or re-used already stretched OEM headbolts. These builds would have failed regardless of the gasket used.

The argument on whether you should use a VTEC or Non-VTEC gasket is pretty moot since they both work, but the GE kit requires less work, no machining unless you need to deck the head or block, and is very affordable.

bambam

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by streetrays &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We've sold and used Golden Eagle headgaskets and VTEC conversion kits for years without any problems that didn't stem from the customer.

The only time we've ever had any issues is when a customer has done the work themselves and didn't get a warped head machined or re-used already stretched OEM headbolts. These builds would have failed regardless of the gasket used.

The argument on whether you should use a VTEC or Non-VTEC gasket is pretty moot since they both work, but the GE kit requires less work, no machining unless you need to deck the head or block, and is very affordable.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Let's get some opinions in here from people that don't "sell" GE products. Those types of opinions can be viewed as biased. That's the opinion that I offer.

h22crxpwr

just funny how you can say it isn't the right one when people with much more experience than you are telling you otherwise. look above. Bergenholtz, chuck s, GE, honestly user error or an incorrect install might be why some have had failures with certain gaskets. personally i've used both gaskets. whichever one i had at the time. they both work. but to say that the Vtec one doesn't work?? thats just incorrect... i've used both with no failure. and honestly i like the Vtec headgasket better. i prefer to mate the gasket to the head.

but hey do what you want. i would just watch out for spreading false rumors... the Vtec gaskets work fine with no problems.... and you can use either one. and for the average user the GE kit is a complete kit. ready to install. and it works without having to modify the gasket. I've never had one problem with Vtec gaskets on a B20 or Ls-vtec.

bambam

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h22crxpwr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just funny how you can say it isn't the right one when people with much more experience than you are telling you otherwise. look above. Bergenholtz, chuck s, GE, honestly user error or an incorrect install might be why some have had failures with certain gaskets. personally i've used both gaskets. whichever one i had at the time. they both work. but to say that the Vtec one doesn't work?? thats just incorrect... i've used both with no failure. and honestly i like the Vtec headgasket better. i prefer to mate the gasket to the head.

but hey do what you want. i would just watch out for spreading false rumors... the Vtec gaskets work fine with no problems.... and you can use either one. and for the average user the GE kit is a complete kit. ready to install. and it works without having to modify the gasket. I've never had one problem with Vtec gaskets on a B20 or Ls-vtec.</TD></TR></TABLE>

WTF? Ummmm I never said it wouldn't work. I agreed that they would both work, but I simply state that I recommend one over the other for reasons discussed above. And, there are just as many experienced top teams that use the non-vtec gasket too....like I stated. And I admitted they have more experience in building motors than me. I don't deny that. This thread is my writeup, and my opinion. You are free to have yours. I don't have any problem with anyone recommending using the vtec headgasket. But I will continue to express my opinion, as it is just that, MINE. I don't have to worry about working on their cars, I have to worry about working on my own, my friends, and my customers, which is entirely why I use the headgasket that I WANT to use. I just don't like they way the vtec headgasket sits on the non-vtec block. I don't like the little coverage you have and less seal that you have than when using a non-vtec gasket. Please reread what I wrote above.

bambam

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 90CivcHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey man i have a few questions to ask you im doing a full build on a LS/VTEC turbo what oil and breakin sequence should i do you think i like everything i see in your write up your obviously very intellegant on this subject lol lemme know please</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, oil...pretty much any high end synthetic would work great such as Castrol syntec, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Redline, etc. I recommend Castrol Syntec personally because I have had and have seen great results with it. Honda recommends Mobil 1, but obviously they don't have any turbo cars on their product line...lol. Whatever you do, MAKE SURE you run an oil restrictor inline with your turbo oil inlet. Honda oil pumps pump out some pretty high oil pressures (75+ psi) which is way to much pressure for any turbo's center section. You don't need to force oil in there, which will only cause oil to get past the seals and eventually into the compressor and exhaust housings themselves leading to oil consumption. The restrictors on the market today drop the pressure to just about 25 psi which is all the pressure you need. They are pretty cheap insurance parts that are widely available from many of the top turbo companies. I've used ATP's restrictors in the past without any problems.


Modified by bambam at 4:01 PM 2/29/2008

mouab18c1

iTrader: (5)

I used this thread to build my b20vtec last summer...best that there is...and truely agree with bambam.....

bambam

If you look at the lsvtec articles published in some of the world's largest import tuning magazines, you will see that they ALL recommend using the non-vtec gasket. Here's a few links for you too:

http://www.importtuner.com/tec....html
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.....html
http://www.hondatuningmagazine....html

Even companies like Pro Street and Exospeed, and C-speedracing.com recommend using the non-vtec gasket. Are they all inexperienced builders? Is that what you are telling me and them?

More links for you:
http://www.exospeed.com/category.php?id=204
http://www.c-speedracing.com/h...c.php
http://my.prostreetonline.com/t164.htm

BTW, Cometic themselves, the absolute fu&lt;king gods of headgaskets, supply modified non-vtec headgaskets for their lsvtec conversions. Are you telling me that they are wrong too?

In fact, you are one of the few that recommends using the vtec headgasket. Everyone else that recommends the non-vtec gasket does so with supporting reasoning on why they also think the vtec gasket is the wrong one to use here.