[FAQ] How-To: Charge your A/C air conditioner conditioning system at home

[virginia_dude]

R-12 isn't all THAT expensive. A 12 oz can cost $29 recently at a local parts store....IF you have a 609 certification. I do. I just got done rebuilding my EF9 system...new O rings (obviously) new evaporater, condenser, expansion valve, compressor and reciever drier. Charged with real R-12 Freon. Cost me all of around $600. That's enough freon for most of our cars...and I get 37 degrees vent temps at nearly 1/2 the operating pressure of R-134 and many of the wannabe refrigerants. And has a higher efficiency as in a higher cooling capacity. The car will cool off faster, and stay cool easier with less work. And less work equates to more power at the wheels and better fuel mileage. More pressure means more stress on the system, more power drain when operating and more chance for something to leak or go bad. Get the certification or get a friend that has it to get it for you. Our cars are engineered for the cooling capacity of R-12...R-134 needs a larger condenser just to be equal.

This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on Honda-Tech!

[RonJ@HT]

Originally Posted by virginia_dude

R-12 isn't all THAT expensive. A 12 oz can cost $29 recently at a local parts store....IF you have a 609 certification. I do. I just got done rebuilding my EF9 system...new O rings (obviously) new evaporater, condenser, expansion valve, compressor and reciever drier. Charged with real R-12 Freon. Cost me all of around $600.

That's enough freon for most of our cars...and I get 37 degrees vent temps at nearly 1/2 the operating pressure of R-134 and many of the wannabe refrigerants. And has a higher efficiency as in a higher cooling capacity. The car will cool off faster, and stay cool easier with less work.

And less work equates to more power at the wheels and better fuel mileage.

More pressure means more stress on the system, more power drain when operating and more chance for something to leak or go bad.

Get the certification or get a friend that has it to get it for you. Our cars are engineered for the cooling capacity of R-12...R-134 needs a larger condenser just to be equal.

I don't think there's any debating that R12 is superior to R134a with respect to refrigerant cooling capacity. Nonetheless, R12 use should be strictly discouraged unless absolutely necessary due to its much more harmful effects on the ozone layer. That's why a license is required to purchase R12.

[virginia_dude]

Originally Posted by RonJ@HT

I don't think there's any debating that R12 is superior to R134a with respect to refrigerant cooling capacity. Nonetheless, R12 use should be strictly discouraged unless absolutely necessary due to its much more harmful effects on the ozone layer. That's why a license is required to purchase R12.

R-134 isn't any better....and why its being phased out.

And besides....in a rebuilt system its not harmful to anything. The R-12 being harmful is overplayed. R-22 used in Commercial systems is actually far worse. If the system leaks, fix it. don't just keep dumping ANY type of refrigerant in a leaky system...none of them are truly inert.

The Greenies have been pushing a lot of false information on the public for a long time.

And a car system rebuilt using R-12 instead of R-134 is LESS likely to fail and vent to the atmosphere. All its parts are under far less stress.

[RonJ@HT]

Originally Posted by virginia_dude

R-134 isn't any better....and why its being phased out.

This completely flies in the face of the opinions of scientists worldwide who are experts on this topic.

And besides....in a rebuilt system its not harmful to anything.

To clarify, I was not criticizing your use of R12 in an original R12 system. This is legal and appropriate. I was trying to say that you don't want to encourage people in this forum to convert their R134a systems to R12 systems that cool more effectively. This is both illegal and bad for the environment.

The R-12 being harmful is overplayed. R-22 used in Commercial systems is actually far worse.

Again, R12 is much more harmful to the environment than is R134a. There is overwhelming scientific data to support this contention. R22 seems to be just as bad as R12. But that's off topic in this thread because R22 is rarely used in car A/C systems.

If the system leaks, fix it. don't just keep dumping ANY type of refrigerant in...none of them are truly inert.

I completely agree.

The Greenies have been pushing a lot of false information on the public for a long time.

This enters into the political arena. I will limit my arguments to scientific facts.

And a car system rebuilt using R-12 instead of R-134 is LESS likely to fail and vent to the atmosphere. All its parts are under far less stress.

But when R12 systems leak, and they will leak, they cause much more environmental damage.

[civicjunkie17]

wow, great job really good to know. thanks

[virginia_dude]

Originally Posted by RonJ@HT

This completely flies in the face of the opinions of scientists worldwide who are experts on this topic.

To clarify, I was not criticizing your use of R12 in an original R12 system. This is legal and appropriate. I was trying to say that you don't want to encourage people in this forum to convert their R134a systems to R12 systems that cool more effectively. This is both illegal and bad for the environment.

Again, R12 is much more harmful to the environment than is R134a. There is overwhelming scientific data to support this contention. R22 seems to be just as bad as R12. But that's off topic in this thread because R22 is rarely used in car A/C systems.

I completely agree.

This enters into the political arena. I will limit my arguments to scientific facts.

But when R12 systems leak, and they will leak, they cause much more environmental damage.

Can't prove that by me...or anyone else based on truely independent scientific sources. Lot of junk science on the internet....being quoted by anyone who wants to believe it.

Independent studies I'VE seen from sources without alliances or agendas show R-134 is as bad or nearly as bad as R-12. R-22 comment is relevant not because its used in cars... but because it is in widespread use extensively yet it isn't demonized by the same people that demonize R-12...

All politics aside (which I agree this isn't the forum for)...you have to be careful what you listen to, and know where its coming from before it is judged to be fact. That applies to everything....advice on repairs to what to eat for dinner.

I'll agree with you completely on the point of discouraging people to retrofit R-134 systems to R-12. For the most part those systems are already sized and sufficiently engineered with R-134 in mind. And too many people aren't fully aware of the results of mixing the wrong types of oils together in a system or with the wrong refrigerants. Unless you live in death valley you don't need the extra capacity anyway.

Besides its illegal. I forgot to mention that at first.

And I strongly advise against any blends as well. They can't be topped off need recovered and evacuated with the proper equipment and will contaminate otherwise good recovered refrigerant if someone does not change the service fittings and label the system as required, as all too many people are guilty of doing. Every refrigerant legally requires a unique service valve. How would YOU like to be the shop recovering what they think is R-12 and isn't with a nearly full bottle. It can't be used for anything...costs a fortune to legally dispose of or recycle in cases its possible to do. Its stuff like that which is responsible for the sky high fees shops charge for this work. I'll bet most shops have been burned like that and are passing it on to everyone else.

And any E-Z recharge kit (used as in any kit, no specific brand names) in a box that says you can change the system over in 15 minutes is #1 Committing False advertising and #2 dooming you to a future with either no A/C or expensive repair bills. Without a complete flush, complete change of oil type, in some cases new hoses, and always new O-Rings (and always new receiver drier whenever system is opened) you aren't doing a change that will last.

My personal belief is those kits should be outlawed. Do it right or not at all and its better for everyone.

[RonJ@HT]

Originally Posted by virginia_dude

Can't prove that by me...or anyone else based on truely independent scientific sources. Lot of junk science on the internet....being quoted by anyone who wants to believe it.

Independent studies I'VE seen from sources without alliances or agendas show R-134 is as bad or nearly as bad as R-12. R-22 comment is relevant not because its used in cars... but because it is in widespread use extensively yet it isn't demonized by the same people that demonize R-12...

Based on our interchange, I think we are more in agreement than our debate would suggest.

I think the internet is actually a great resource for reliable information, but you need to know where to look. There's little debate that R134a was an enormous improvement over R12 and R22 with respect to ozone depletion. More recent evidence, however, suggests that R134a is a greenhouse gas that may contribute to global warming. For this reason, R134a will be phased out by 2020, and I believe R22 will likewise be phased out about the same time if not sooner due to its ability to deplete the ozone layer. Presumably, next generation refrigerants will be more kind to both global warming and the ozone layer. Clearly, to make progress, we must embrace changes made for the greater good rather than resist them simply because they create inconveniences.

[millese]

The fact that you spent $29 with a cert means nothing to the great majority of people doing DIY work on their A/C systems. The fact of the matter is the AVERAGE Joe is going to pay more like $45-50 per can, 2x I might add because even your relatively small system probably uses over 20 oz's and they don't sell them in partials, then tack on labor. For many, this is a 1st crack at a/c, and are not likely have the correct fittings or gauges to check pressures on a R12 system, let alone tap an r12 can. As for r134 all these can be borrowed at your local parts store for a fully refundable deposit. Good luck doing that with R12, parts stores will laugh at you. As for pressures with my larger condenser and a proper charge they are no where near 2x of what my r12 system was, try 10% more and no detectable change in gas mileage whatsoever. Oh and by the way, god forbid you make a mistake in your leak checking or have a rock kicked up and punch a hole in your condenser because your kicking in another $60 bucks even with your numbers (which will probably be $80 in another year) $100 for the rest of us, when I will do it for $14. I was only showing that there is life after r12, I'll be happy to freeze you out any time your in AZ with all your r12 its sure to keep getting hotter!

[RonJ@HT]

Originally Posted by millese

The fact that you spent $29 with a cert means nothing to the great majority of people doing DIY work on their A/C systems. The fact of the matter is the AVERAGE Joe is going to pay more like $45-50 per can, 2x I might add because even your relatively small system probably uses over 20 oz's and they don't sell them in partials, then tack on labor. For many, this is a 1st crack at a/c, and are not likely have the correct fittings or gauges to check pressures on a R12 system, let alone tap an r12 can. As for r134 all these can be borrowed at your local parts store for a fully refundable deposit. Good luck doing that with R12, parts stores will laugh at you. As for pressures with my larger condenser and a proper charge they are no where near 2x of what my r12 system was, try 10% more and no detectable change in gas mileage whatsoever. Oh and by the way, god forbid you make a mistake in your leak checking or have a rock kicked up and punch a hole in your condenser because your kicking in another $60 bucks even with your numbers (which will probably be $80 in another year) $100 for the rest of us, when I will do it for $14.

Compelling and coherent arguments. And by the way, nice job with the conversion.

I was only showing that there is life after r12, I'll be happy to freeze you out any time your in AZ with all your r12 its sure to keep getting hotter!

Actually, R12 depletes the ozone layer, thereby increasing that amount of harmful UV light that reaches Earth's surface. R12 does not, however, seem to be a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming.

R134a, on the other hand, is a suspected greenhouse gas that may contribute to global warming. That's why it too will soon be replaced by a more environmentally friendly refrigerant.

[millese]

RonJ, thank you very much for your feedback. It was a fun project and my kids and wife are very happy with it LOL. Your right on all counts. Thanks for setting me straight on greenhouse vs. ozone depleting gasses.

[virginia_dude]

You guys are gonna be in for one hell of a shock when you finally learn not to believe everything you see on tv.

MOST of that is propaganda....The Global average temps have been falling every year since 1987, not going up.

I'm not 18, I'm a LOT older. I've been working for the last 29 years SINCE I graduated college, most of it with the government and a big part of that with a clearance. Experience (as in I have seen the events then saw what was reported) has showed me to trust little that you see on the news... they nearly always show you what they want you to see, not whats really going on. But that entire discussion is wrong for this forum in any case so I'll leave it at that.

[virginia_dude]

Originally Posted by RonJ@HT

Based on our interchange, I think we are more in agreement than our debate would suggest.

I think the internet is actually a great resource for reliable information, but you need to know where to look. There's little debate that R134a was an enormous improvement over R12 and R22 with respect to ozone depletion. More recent evidence, however, suggests that R134a is a greenhouse gas that may contribute to global warming. For this reason, R134a will be phased out by 2020, and I believe R22 will likewise be phased out about the same time if not sooner due to its ability to deplete the ozone layer. Presumably, next generation refrigerants will be more kind to both global warming and the ozone layer. Clearly, to make progress, we must embrace changes made for the greater good rather than resist them simply because they create inconveniences.

Yeah the internet is a great resource. Problem is there is even more crap out there than there are real facts...sorting through it and recognising which is which isn't easy. And you know what I mean from some peoples posts all over this and other sites about how to do certain repairs at times. When I hear JB Weld and tin to fix a structural part of the car for example..

I have no trust in the people with an agenda who are pushing that whole "Green" thing....they are not honest with the average Joe about what they are ulimately after. Follow the Dollars....then you see the truth.

But like you said...I do believe in doing the work right or not at all. I don't blieve in letting oil leaks go unrepaired....I don't dump oil behind the house....if your A/C has a leak...find it and fix it, etc.

And the comment someone made about the R-12 cost....all depends on where you go. Many shops ARE charging over $130 a lb for it. Highway Robery if you ask me but the idiots with other crap in their systems that never changes the service valves share a big responsibility for that. Contaminated Freon can't be reused and costs a fortune to detroy or reprocess so those costs get passed on to you. Again thats a shop....not NOS (new old stock) cans that are still around.

I can still borrow/rent R-12 stuff locally here, Electronic leak detectors, You can buy adapter fittings to use the newer R-134 guages, and cheap guages are....well cheap. About $40. The vacuum pump cost a lot more but those can be rented. Recovery machines are what cost....a lot. And there is Always E-bay..this stuff used can be had for a bargain. If you have the smarts to put it together and not have it leak...then its worth the extra effort to learn how it really works first. Before you make mistakes. Even if you do, stuff happens. But then you will understand whats going on. I had all new parts on mine except the hoses. Even then I had a stuck Expansion Valve and a leaking (minor but still a leak) condenser, BRAND new parts mind you. If I did not understand this stuff before...Imagine the mess that could have been.

These are pretty good cars...fix it right the first time and you shouldn't have to make that same repair again.

[millese]

I tried to convince my wallet that the price of r12 was caused by pure propaganda, and that we really should buy a bunch of obsolete r12 equipment, but it just wouldn't listen.

[virginia_dude]

Originally Posted by millese

I tried to convince my wallet that the price of r12 was caused by pure propaganda, and that we really should buy a bunch of obsolete r12 equipment, but it just wouldn't listen.

The price of freon is directly related to the fact its been a lot of years since they last made it (or Imported it). And resulting market price based on supply and demand.

The fact they stopped making it in the first place was a result of propaganda...the rest is do to a restricted supply to supply the demand that exists. Actually the people who are duping everyone into using R-134 are lessening the demand for R-12, which lowers the price for those of us that want to keep things the way they were designed to be. Now thats cauing the price of R-134 to rise as a result. If you've been watching it its been climbing in price.


Doubt the logic there.....look no further than diamonds for another pricey commodity thats held high by an artificial shortage by the DeBeers cartel. Which isn't a real shortage...if they released the diamonds they are holding in reserve they would be cheaper than synthetic rocks....thats the extent of the fall in value from the market flooding with them.

We have strayed way off topic here....the powers that be will get upset.

[millese]

Thanks for the lesson on supply and demand, it was entertaining, albeit incredibly obvious. This point is I don't care what market forces are at work, the FACT is the stuff in a grip, and that grip will continue to get worse as it becomes increasingly scarce. PERIOD. Virginia, no disrespect intended, but your points never make a good argument for the use of r12 they only try to explain why it costs so much to obtain it. As I said before, I really don't care why it costs so much, it just does. The paradigm has shifted, I feel like I'm listening to a Detroit auto worker trying to tell me why he deserves to get paid $50 an hour to operate an impact wrench.

P.S. I've been buying r134 for $7 a can for years and not in bulk either. I don't know where you get data that would suggest r12 is coming down in price and r134 is going up. I suggest you check your numbers normalize both agaist inflation and see if you data is indeed correct.

[RonJ@HT]

Originally Posted by virginia_dude

The fact they stopped making it [R12] in the first place was a result of propaganda...

Just curious, what makes you believe that R12 was banned for propaganda reasons as opposed to scientific evidence suggesting that it was destroying the ozone layer? What reputable peer-reviewed scientific sources/articles can you cite to support your theory?

[millese]

And for the record, I'm 36 old year college graduate with 15 years in the semiconductor industry working as an engineer. Not that I think 18 year olds can't make good arguments.

[HTautodc]

umm, just wondering. i don't have an autozone here, only NAPA and other auto parts supplies. what should i tell them so that i can return the manifold or vacuum pump? :D

[millese]

Well, not sure how it works with NAPA, but at Autozone they charge you the full amout to purchase the item, so I guess if you don't bring it back you just bought it. I would go in and ask. Do they have Checker/Kragen stores where you are at?

[HTautodc]

yup, we have checkers, not sure with kragen. i never heard of checkers renting tools, but are they?

[ekb16a]

get a hair cut LOL Nice write upppp ...

[virginia_dude]

Originally Posted by RonJ@HT

Just curious, what makes you believe that R12 was banned for propaganda reasons as opposed to scientific evidence suggesting that it was destroying the ozone layer? What reputable peer-reviewed scientific sources/articles can you cite to support your theory?

Once upon a time I had them all bookmarked. And even had studies that showed where more than a few were actually getting their money from, and a chunk of these anti R-12 websites traced back to the same groups of owners. Activist eveiromentalists who are the last people I consider reputible as they are pushing an extremist agenda. But I lost them in a computer crash last year and honestly don't have the time or desire to recompile them. A certain group believes what tey are told and if the proof was right in front of them they would still ignore it.

But its the wrong forum for that sort of discussion anyway, and besides I don't have the time.

Use what you want....most of it will work for a few years anyway and thats all the longer most people keep their cars. I've had mine going on 10 years now since I built it and I plan on driving it into the ground. Lower operating pressures = less stress and less chance to leak. It works better on the hottest most humid days (even if not by a huge margin) and if you take the time to get a liscense...these days the price differential isn't great enough to HAVE to use the cheaper less effective R-134 in a R-12 system. But heck, if you want cheap put some isobutane in it....not legal but it works.

No reason to use it in the newer cars, they are engineered for R-134 (desides being illegal to put R-12 into those anyway and you would never get proper service fittings too)...but in the older cars its what works best.

I'll be 50 long before this car is worn out or rusted out.