My H22 swap into EF using Hasport mounts

[alphajesse]

It's bad enough that I'm having my shop fab some mounts from scratch and tossing this crappy HASport kit.

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[2lude4u]

I wouldn't call it crappy. It just has a few kinks that should've been worked out (or at least made clear that they existed to potential purchasers) before releasing it to the public.

It'd be nice if they'd do a little something to help us poor "pioneers" (alphajesse, freeltec, & myself) out. I simply don't have any $ left over for a CF hood, especially if it's still going to have clearance issues. I've jimmy-rigged the hood with spacers for now, but will need to get some hood pins for some insurance because I don't want the thing flipping up on me.


I forgot what brand of hood they used, but it had no underskeleton, whereas the VIS hoods do, don't they? As far as lowering the engine & radius rod clearance they could have easliy worked that out by asking their neighbors (Full-Race) to make sure that their traction bars will clear the pan with an H22 sitting lower in an EF. Not to mention the fact the Explicit Speed traction bars provide plenty of clearance.

[brian g]

I have to apologize about the SiR hood misunderstanding, but with all the discussion on Honda-Tech when we originally designed the kit, I thought the point was covered. As you all know, the H22/23 is very tall engine and ground clearance is a real issue.

Like many of our other instructions we tend to only talk about how to get the engine in the car. Obviously as the swaps become more extreme like this one and most of the K-series swaps, we need to address the many other details that go along with the swap.

I will update the instructions with more detailed information. I"ll cover some of the peripheral issues like; radiator and fans, shifter choices, radius rods and x-member, and alternator. In the mean time, if you have any specific questions, please post them here and I will answer them.

On a minor point, the EF alternator provides plenty of power for the H22 engine. If you are having a problem with low current it is probably related to worn brushes or a poor connection. Even a high powered coil on a turbo H22 shouldn't cause a problem.

brian g

[ExplicitSpeed360]

We are not a big time company, but we have spent hundreds of hours making these motor mount kits as best as possible. As we all know there are a lot of variables in engineering something like this. Some of the things that must be taken into consideration are axle alignment, ground clearance, hood clearance, motor weight distribution, firewall clearance and a lot of other factors. The end result obviously is a comprimise of all these variables. We believe that we have done the best engineering possible. The end result is we have sold numerous EF H22A motor mount kits with no problems. We also have a EF H22A traction bar system to go with the kit if wanted and we are now producing the same quality for the DA H22A kits.


Modified by ExplicitSpeed360 at 9:31 AM 6/8/2006

[Freeltec]

As of right now, I feel that Hasport should somehow compensate for the lack of info given about the hood clearence issues. In My oppinion thats a BIG deal. I knew the engine was tall, but i also knew Explcitspeed's kit cleared it aswell. Since there was no info posted i could only assume that the "superior" Hasport kit would clear the hood. I Strongly hope that Hasport comes up with someway to compensate its EFH1Kit early buyers. Having to get a hood thats not OEM has completely fuct my plans for a sleeper. The car was supposed to be 100% OEM exterior and now i cant get a stock hood on. That was not expect form Hasport, Maybe a "fly by night" company, but not hasport.

[Freeltec]

could you please post some pics of the jimmy rigged hood.

[2lude4u]

Originally Posted by brian g

I have to apologize about the SiR hood misunderstanding, but with all the discussion on Honda-Tech when we originally designed the kit, I thought the point was covered. As you all know, the H22/23 is very tall engine and ground clearance is a real issue.

brian g

I searched both the hybrid & EF forums for info but did not find much about this swap. After doing a search of posts started by Brian G I found this thread: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=963606. A little late for me though.

The main issue is that everything involved should be in the instructions, which they are not. That's where the information needs to be, not to expect everyone has gleaned all the possible information from H-T (not all of your clients are going to be H-T users). In the instructions there is a list of things needed to do the swap. Why isn't SiR hood or (4) 1" spacers on the list?

Originally Posted by Freeltec

As of right now, I feel that Hasport should somehow compensate for the lack of info given about the hood clearence issues. In My oppinion thats a BIG deal. I knew the engine was tall, but i also knew Explcitspeed's kit cleared it aswell. Since there was no info posted i could only assume that the "superior" Hasport kit would clear the hood. I Strongly hope that Hasport comes up with someway to compensate its EFH1Kit early buyers. Having to get a hood thats not OEM has completely fuct my plans for a sleeper. The car was supposed to be 100% OEM exterior and now i cant get a stock hood on. That was not expect form Hasport, Maybe a "fly by night" company, but not hasport.

I hear you man. I've already expressed the same feelings through an e-mail I sent them with pictures of all the issues.

Have you run into the alternator bracket not quite being right issue as well? I didn't want to mention it in this thread since it is fairly minor & should be easily resolved by Hasport in future kits.

[Freeltec]

To be honest all the other things about the kit are quite trivial, Im not usually one to complain, but not being able to get the stock hood on is a Major ****ing problem for me. I guess Time will tell if hasport steps up to the plate for us.

[2lude4u]

I'll get some pics of the hood posted today hopefully. I did get the axles on Tuesday so my car is buttoned up & I'll be taking in on the streets today & work on a street tune until I can get it dyno tuned.

Also I should mention. Explicitspeed- you guys helped me out & all with the traction bar & I've made a couple plugs for you by mentioning it, but can you please stop whoring threads that are Hasport specific. You even went so far as to mention your prices & link to your site. Please edit your posts appropriately.

[brian g]

Originally Posted by 2lude4u

The main issue is that everything involved should be in the instructions, which they are not. In the instructions there is a list of things needed to do the swap. Why isn't SiR hood or (4) 1" spacers on the list?

There is always an issue of how much information should be in the instructions because as the swap gets done by more people, things are discovered that make the installation easier or more difficult due to variants in chassis and engine from year to year. It's difficult to cover every variation of engine and every accessory configuration. For instance the SOHC Accord engines as well as the H23 DOHC non-VTEC Prelude Si motors are shorter than the H22/23 VTEC motors. My guess is there is probably a height difference between the F20, F22, H22 and H23 DOHC VTEC engines too.

The omission of the hood information is significant not only for the EFH but the EFK as well. So we'll take care of that first. In the plans for some time is to make improvements to the website with tech articles to better explain some of the tips and tricks to make the swaps easier to do as well as explain some of the design philosophy. Obviously this is a little late for you, but it should help in the future.

Along with the better web support of the products is to have the sales people help on the installations too. Back when Hasport first started out, everybody did everything. The people who answered the phones, turned wrenches on the cars, help assemble and make the mounts and had input at every level. We'll never get back to that, but everyone here is an enthusiast and would benefit from time in the shop with the cars. It might even be more fun that way.

Originally Posted by 2lude4u

Have you run into the alternator bracket not quite being right issue as well? I didn't want to mention it in this thread since it is fairly minor & should be easily resolved by Hasport in future kits.

Yes, i appreciate you bringing that up. We have fixed it already on the remaining stock of parts.

Thanks for your support.

brian g

[brian g]

Originally Posted by Freeltec

As of right now, I feel that Hasport should somehow compensate for the lack of info given about the hood clearence issues. In My oppinion thats a BIG deal.

How far along are you in the installation?

brian g

[2lude4u]

Originally Posted by brian g

There is always an issue of how much information should be in the instructions because as the swap gets done by more people, things are discovered that make the installation easier or more difficult due to variants in chassis and engine from year to year. It's difficult to cover every variation of engine and every accessory configuration. For instance the SOHC Accord engines as well as the H23 DOHC non-VTEC Prelude Si motors are shorter than the H22/23 VTEC motors. My guess is there is probably a height difference between the F20, F22, H22 and H23 DOHC VTEC engines too.

All H/F series motors have the same deck/block heights. The F series clear a little better because the have narrower heads. So basically an H23 vtec fits the same as an H22 vtec.

Can you send me one of the new/updated alternator brackets. If you do plan on compensating us early EFH1 users keep me in the loop, I have no $ for a SiR hood at the moment.

[brian g]

Originally Posted by 2lude4u

All H/F series motors have the same deck/block heights. The F series clear a little better because the have narrower heads. So basically an H23 vtec fits the same as an H22 vtec.

There are differences in the heights of the heads and valve covers and thus the overall height of the engines.

brian g

[Freeltec]

Originally Posted by brian g

How far along are you in the installation?

brian g

I have the engine/tranny installed in car. The wiring is almost done. Im at the point where i saw the engine mounted in the car and thought i must have had the mounts adjusted wrong since the engine sat so high, after i have posted here its the the adjustment, its the mounts themselves. Im at the point where i realised that i cant afford to buy another hood, that i still wont know if it fits exactly. I really want the car to look clean and oem, this seems impossible now. Having to get a new hood of some sort is an extreme problem for me. I went into the swap expecting less ground clearence over bad fitment.

[Freeltec]

Originally Posted by 2lude4u

If you do plan on compensating us early EFH1 users keep me in the loop, I have no $ for a SiR hood at the moment.

im in the same boat.

[keithg]

Brian from Hasport is out of town and without internet access until Monday morning. He did update the EFH1 installation instructions before he left town and they are up on our website. http://www.hasport.com/Tech/installs/efh1.pdf

[2lude4u]

Thread has been updated with more pics.

The hood fitment looks poor, as would any hood space up an inch. I haven't taken the car on any high speed turns yet (need to install some hood pins), but the front end is noticeably heavier. It's not anything that makes it a poor handling car though. I'm still riding on stock suspension for now so I can feel how it does affect handling, then I'll upgrade shortly.

The car is a rocket though. The fact that it is around 2000 lbs. & I have a somewhat built NA H23vtec makes it one very responsive Hatch. If I just tap on the throttle it jumps forward.




Modified by 2lude4u at 2:38 PM 6/12/2006

[ExplicitSpeed360]

H series motors in an EF is a rocket to reckin' with! care if I use that last picture of the traction bar on my site?

[Freeltec]

Damn man, those pics are brutal. How could Hasport not mention that. I feel really shafted by Hasport as of right now. Im gonna wait to see if they do anything for us before I jump on any bandwagons, or start putting anyone down. I'll never be able to get my stock hood on ever. Even if i buy some other hood there is no garantee that it will fit correctly until i butcher it. This is going to cost me a bunch for a new hood, plus paint for the new hood. I havent bugeted for any of this and its setting my nutsack on fire.

[2lude4u]

Yeah, it isn't pretty & a little embarrassing. I can't say ruins the look of my "show" car but it doesn't make it look any better.

Originally Posted by ExplicitSpeed360

H series motors in an EF is a rocket to reckin' with! care if I use that last picture of the traction bar on my site?

If you want to use the pic that's fine. It isn't professional or anything, but the oil slick (valve cover gasket didn't seal right) adds a nice touch.

[alphajesse]

Originally Posted by brian g

I have to apologize about the SiR hood misunderstanding, but with all the discussion on Honda-Tech when we originally designed the kit, I thought the point was covered. As you all know, the H22/23 is very tall engine and ground clearance is a real issue.

Like many of our other instructions we tend to only talk about how to get the engine in the car. Obviously as the swaps become more extreme like this one and most of the K-series swaps, we need to address the many other details that go along with the swap.

I will update the instructions with more detailed information. I"ll cover some of the peripheral issues like; radiator and fans, shifter choices, radius rods and x-member, and alternator. In the mean time, if you have any specific questions, please post them here and I will answer them.

On a minor point, the EF alternator provides plenty of power for the H22 engine. If you are having a problem with low current it is probably related to worn brushes or a poor connection. Even a high powered coil on a turbo H22 shouldn't cause a problem.

brian g

Brian, I'm not on H-T much, and I wouldn't expect to be able to get more information about a product from the forums here than the maker's website if the product hasn't been released yet I never even thought to search. All the information I had about the kit was information I was able to glean from your website (not much, as the instructions weren't even up when I ordered) and from your phone guys (who couldn't even tell me for sure about the hood issues, but I figured I'd be needing an SiR style.) You guys have a good rep for having some well engineered kits, so I figured I would be safe in ordering from you. I was assuming I'd get a nice CNC version of the mounts my local shop would fab up if I had them do everything in house. Unfortunately, your kit mounts the engine farther forwards and higher in the bay than what I was expecting. The thing that really kills it for me, and would have prevented me from ordering the kit in the first place was that the h22 accessories (AC compressor and alternator) do not fit, and the D-series one must be used. I was planning on retaining the R-134a converted AC in my car with the swap, which would have been possible with the "traditional" h22 mounting location.

Since the instructions weren't online, and nothing was mentioned about it, I ordered anyhow. The kit sat in it's box in my house for a month while I waited for my appointment at the shop to have everything installed. I called and emailed HASport several times to try and get definitive answers on the hood issue, but nobody could tell me.

I never opened the box, I just dropped it off at the shop with the car. There were no instructions in the box, but fortunately my guys were able to reach someone over at your offices and get them at the end of the day. Unfortunately there were pieces required that supposedly are available from you, yet are still not on the website (the crank pulley the instructions mention.) The guys at the shop were good enough to give me a h22 pulley with the PS section machined off to get everything into the car, so that worked out.

The guys at the shop called me about the alternator/accessory issue before they started, but I couldn't visualize how bad the radiator/header/alternator clearance was, so I had them go ahead, figuring they could "find a way" even if it meant using the D16 compressor and alternator. That's probably my biggest regret about the swap right there- I should have had them make their "from scratch" mounts when they called me then. At least I have a pretty butch-looking cable-hydro adapter.

Some comments about the kit since I'm here. Your instructions for the kit regarding the mounting for the shifter and shift cables result in some unneeded kinks and puts them right by the header. BlackTrax in Milpitas, CA did an awesome job of routing it inside the car with fewer sharp bends and no risk of burnt cables from the header.

As for the alternator, my alternator is less than one year old. I run into slight issues with current including the brake light dimming when going into reverse, or when the blinkers go. I'm pretty sure this puppy isn't worn out yet.

For the hood, I went and bought a SiR hood and still rub, not on the skeleton, but on the hump. The valve cover over the cam gears, the alternator wiring loom over the valve cover, and the valve cover just to the left of that area rub on the hood. I had to space a hood designed specifically to allow fitment of taller motors in the chassis by about 4 mm at the front and back.

I feel like a guinea pig after using this kit, but that's my own fault. I had a known quantity, the locally fabbed kit, and opted to go with your product assuming things about that turned out to not be the case. My car is a daily driver, and not having AC in the summer when driving to work in a shirt and tie is not making me enjoy my car. Hopefully you make it more clear online as to what is required and how the engine sits in the car after doing this swap, but I plan on going back and having BlackTrax mount it their way in a few months when I'm not thinking about how much money I just dropped on the car.

My honest suggestions to you in the future are that you make more information about your kits readily available on your website, and make it clear what nonstandard parts and methods are used to fit the engine in the chassis. If you would like to discuss my thoughts on the kit privately, I invite you to send me a PM.

[keithg]

As I mentioned before, Brian G from Hasport is out of town and without internet access. He was supposed to be back to work on Monday but I asked him to take Monday off so he could cover for me next Friday. He will be back to work on Tuesday.
I know that he gave a lot of thought to engine placement of the H22 into the CRX and he put it right where he thought it would be best. It is truly unfortunate that the hood clearance issue was not mentioned in the original instructions.

[brian g]

Originally Posted by alphajesse

Brian, I'm not on H-T much, and I wouldn't expect to be able to get more information about a product from the forums here than the maker's website if the product hasn't been released yet I never even thought to search. All the information I had about the kit was information I was able to glean from your website (not much, as the instructions weren't even up when I ordered) and from your phone guys (who couldn't even tell me for sure about the hood issues, but I figured I'd be needing an SiR style.) You guys have a good rep for having some well engineered kits, so I figured I would be safe in ordering from you. I was assuming I'd get a nice CNC version of the mounts my local shop would fab up if I had them do everything in house. Unfortunately, your kit mounts the engine farther forwards and higher in the bay than what I was expecting. The thing that really kills it for me, and would have prevented me from ordering the kit in the first place was that the h22 accessories (AC compressor and alternator) do not fit, and the D-series one must be used. I was planning on retaining the R-134a converted AC in my car with the swap, which would have been possible with the "traditional" h22 mounting location.

I understand your use of the term "traditional" but there is no such thing on this car. The engine bay is simply too short. AC works on EG, EK and DC vehicles becuause these cars have no front crossmember. They also have a longer engine bay so leaving the alternator high doesn't interfere with the headlamp. The other companies that have made kits have typically decided to stand the engine more upright to solve the space issue, unfortunately that just makes the ground clearance problem worse.

The only reason we dicided to move forward with the EF H-series kit was after using the SiR hood and relocating the alternator to solve the ground clearance problems with the K20 swap we dicided it was a fair compromise. It was probably the mass amounts of discussion and coverage this kit recieved that led me to assume everyone was on the same page with the EFH kits.

To keep the alternator in the stock location and run AC you have a couple of choices.
1) You can stand the engine upright which makes it taller and compromises ground clearance. This may cause problems that relate to oil, such as not being able to totally drain the oil without removing the oil pan. There's also the problem with engine oiling; the galleys in the engine and transmission where designed with the engine sitting at a particular angle and may have some long term effects if used other than designed.
2) Or you can either fabricate a new intake manifold that is shorter or move the firewall back. Either way you'll also need to do some cutting on the rear engine crossmember for differential clearance. If you don't raise the engine though you will also need to modify the crossmember or replace it with an aftermarket one.
3) It may even be possible to use our kit with aftermarket hood, half radiator and aftermarket crossmember.

The bottom line of course is there was insufficient notice about these issues on our website, and for that all I can do is apologize.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

I called and emailed HASport several times to try and get definitive answers on the hood issue, but nobody could tell me.

This is a big problem, as every employee I've talked to is aware of the hood issue. I'd like to know who you emailed or talked to so I can address this problem.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

Unfortunately there were pieces required that supposedly are available from you, yet are still not on the website (the crank pulley the instructions mention.)

Originally Posted by alphajesse

The crank pulley should not have been in the instructions and has been deleted. An example of the stock and modified pulleys has been added.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

The guys at the shop called me about the alternator/accessory issue before they started, but I couldn't visualize how bad the radiator/header/alternator clearance was, so I had them go ahead, figuring they could "find a way" even if it meant using the D16 compressor and alternator. That's probably my biggest regret about the swap right there- I should have had them make their "from scratch" mounts when they called me then. At least I have a pretty butch-looking cable-hydro adapter.

We can sell the cable/hydro separately if that's what you'd like to do.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

Some comments about the kit since I'm here. Your instructions for the kit regarding the mounting for the shifter and shift cables result in some unneeded kinks and puts them right by the header. BlackTrax in Milpitas, CA did an awesome job of routing it inside the car with fewer sharp bends and no risk of burnt cables from the header.

There is no mention of how to route the cables in our instructions. We routed our cables on our car out the firewall and are nowhere near the header. There is a mention of this in the H22 installation article in Sport Compact Car. Not sure where BlackTrax got their information.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

As for the alternator, my alternator is less than one year old. I run into slight issues with current including the brake light dimming when going into reverse, or when the blinkers go. I'm pretty sure this puppy isn't worn out yet.

Then there is another problem, but I assure you it is not the EF's output being insufficient for an H22.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

For the hood, I went and bought a SiR hood and still rub, not on the skeleton, but on the hump. The valve cover over the cam gears, the alternator wiring loom over the valve cover, and the valve cover just to the left of that area rub on the hood. I had to space a hood designed specifically to allow fitment of taller motors in the chassis by about 4 mm at the front and back.

Which SiR hood did you get? We used a Fiber Images hood.

Originally Posted by alphajesse

My honest suggestions to you in the future are that you make more information about your kits readily available on your website, and make it clear what nonstandard parts and methods are used to fit the engine in the chassis. If you would like to discuss my thoughts on the kit privately, I invite you to send me a PM.

Point taken.

brian g

[skunked]

10lb's of shit in a 5 pound bag

enjoy the power to weight ratio

[alphajesse]

Originally Posted by brian g

I understand your use of the term "traditional" but there is no such thing on this car. The engine bay is simply too short. AC works on EG, EK and DC vehicles becuause these cars have no front crossmember. They also have a longer engine bay so leaving the alternator high doesn't interfere with the headlamp. The other companies that have made kits have typically decided to stand the engine more upright to solve the space issue, unfortunately that just makes the ground clearance problem worse.

The only reason we dicided to move forward with the EF H-series kit was after using the SiR hood and relocating the alternator to solve the ground clearance problems with the K20 swap we dicided it was a fair compromise. It was probably the mass amounts of discussion and coverage this kit recieved that led me to assume everyone was on the same page with the EFH kits.

To keep the alternator in the stock location and run AC you have a couple of choices.
1) You can stand the engine upright which makes it taller and compromises ground clearance. This may cause problems that relate to oil, such as not being able to totally drain the oil without removing the oil pan. There's also the problem with engine oiling; the galleys in the engine and transmission where designed with the engine sitting at a particular angle and may have some long term effects if used other than designed.
2) Or you can either fabricate a new intake manifold that is shorter or move the firewall back. Either way you'll also need to do some cutting on the rear engine crossmember for differential clearance. If you don't raise the engine though you will also need to modify the crossmember or replace it with an aftermarket one.
3) It may even be possible to use our kit with aftermarket hood, half radiator and aftermarket crossmember.

The bottom line of course is there was insufficient notice about these issues on our website, and for that all I can do is apologize.

I was expecting #2 to be the type of kit I was getting. (With stock manifold but a super-massaged firewall.)


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is a big problem, as every employee I've talked to is aware of the hood issue. I'd like to know who you emailed or talked to so I can address this problem.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was making these calls and emails back in January, Feburary and early March. Most of my emails went unanswered, and the 4 or 5 calls I made the person I spoke to didn't know, the test car wasn't there to check, and near the end I was getting "I don't know if that hood is required."

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We can sell the cable/hydro separately if that's what you'd like to do.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That would be awesome.
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There is no mention of how to route the cables in our instructions. We routed our cables on our car out the firewall and are nowhere near the header. There is a mention of this in the H22 installation article in Sport Compact Car. Not sure where BlackTrax got their information.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I might have misspoke, but it might have been the shifter itself. I'll have the guy who did it explain how he changed it from your instructions later on today or tomorrow.

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Then there is another problem, but I assure you it is not the EF's output being insufficient for an H22.

Which SiR hood did you get? We used a Fiber Images hood.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mine came from VIS, it was hard to find anyplace that had these available for the US front end without a month or two wait, meanwhile my stock hood was trying to rub a hole through my valve cover. When I was asking your guys about the hood I couldn't even get info on where yours came from so I went with VIS when I happened to call on the day that a bunch of hoods came in to get delivery immediately.
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Point taken.

brian g</TD></TR></TABLE>

Since a swap like this requires many compromises, I would have preferred to have the information on what decisions you guys had made regarding those compromises before I placed my order. Since that information was unavailable, I had assumed that the kit made the 'usual' decisions that people come to when putting an H in an EF.