lastturn

Just wondering on options and brands of real working racing wing thats not all Ebay. I searched for this topic but the only thing i got was people selling wings. Any ideas??? What are you guys running??

Johnny Mac

Built my own out of vacuum bagged carbon fiber.

slammed_93_hatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Built my own out of vacuum bagged carbon fiber.</TD></TR></TABLE>

cause your a pimp like that


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lastturn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just wondering on options and brands of real working racing wing thats not all Ebay. I searched for this topic but the only thing i got was people selling wings. Any ideas??? What are you guys running??</TD></TR></TABLE>

there are alot of companies out there that have stuff that works, you could contact the companies on the list of aproved wings for WC, IIRC Jmac has a wing that should be approved.

get ready to spend serious money 1500 on up.

lastturn

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> get ready to spend serious money 1500 on up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yikes!! and i thought the APR wings are expensive!!

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


there are alot of companies out there that have stuff that works, you could contact the companies on the list of aproved wings for WC, IIRC Jmac has a wing that should be approved.

get ready to spend serious money 1500 on up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, real wings cost a hell of alot more than the blingy but nearly useless wings. Crawford's World Challenge wing costs almost $2000 and that's without mounts. Some of the other WC wings are less expensive at somewhere around $1200. I think my world challenge spec. wing will be in the $1200 to $1400 range. I won't be using a WC type wing on my H4 car though since I don't need that much downforce. Instead, I'll have a 7-1/2" chord low Reynolds number and moderately cambered carbon fiber wing on the H4 car to test at the Friday test day and the X-over. Once I get a design that works well in H4, I'll have an extrusion die made and start offering them at around $300 retail. But first, I must test, test, and test some more before I worry about extrusions. Also, I've got to verify that my CFD analysis and wind tunnel (2-D) testing data was in the ballpark.

lastturn

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, real wings cost a hell of alot more than the blingy but nearly useless wings. Crawford's World Challenge wing costs almost $2000 and that's without mounts. Some of the other WC wings are less expensive at somewhere around $1200. I think my world challenge spec. wing will be in the $1200 to $1400 range. I won't be using a WC type wing on my H4 car though since I don't need that much downforce. Instead, I'll have a 7-1/2" chord low Reynolds number and moderately cambered carbon fiber wing on the H4 car to test at the Friday test day and the X-over. Once I get a design that works well in H4, I'll have an extrusion die made and start offering them at around $300 retail. But first, I must test, test, and test some more before I worry about extrusions. Also, I've got to verify that my CFD analysis and wind tunnel (2-D) testing data was in the ballpark. </TD></TR></TABLE>

awesome project let me know how it goes. I live in the area (socal LA) Ill be there at the X-over Ill try to check you out. what car are you running?

Johnny Mac

I'll be in the #31 white CRX H4 car. Stop by and we can chat.

apexinghonda

You doing this wing for a CRX? I might be interested if you don't make it too wide for my tastes but of course you need to make it for yours. Will it be adjustable? I would like to find one that does not stick out so much over the side profile of the roof. To me that looks like so much drag. Anyhow post more when you get more data.

Barry H.

Johnny Mac

One thing nice about these wings is they can be trimmed to any length. The wing I'm testing has a 48" span and based on what I find with regard to the flow at the tips, the wing could be either lengthened or shortened. The wings are adjustable in angle of attack, but I haven't decided on the type of mounting bracketry or method of adjustment. Turnbuckles are convenient, but they are high drag and may affect the wing's lower surface airflow. Simple flat plates can be low drag, but are a bit inconvenient (compared to turnbuckles) to adjust angle of attack. In addition, I may use a fixed wicker bill (Gurney flap) or I may slot the trailing edge to allow different sizes of Gurneys. I expect to determine the completed design of this wing within two months and then its into production.

Mr.E.G.

i dont have any idea what rules you guys have to contend with and whatnot, but building a wing from scratch is not that hard or expensive.

here is the method that i recommend

go to home depot and get some mdf some 1/4 inch threaded rods and some nuts. cut the airfoil shape out of the mdf and drill holes through it. make several of the mdf wing shapes and then skewer them with the threaded rods and use the nuts to tighten it all up. you now have a frame of a wing. get some aluminum flashing or someother type if thin metal and rivet it over the frame to make the skin of the wing.

voila! you now have a wing. you can probably make five different wings for less than 100 bucks. make them with varying span and what not and then test them and find out which one gives you the best results. once you are happy with the results then you can have a lightweight version made out of carbon fiber or whatever you can afford. this method will save you some dough and you will get the best wing for your car and for the way that you plan to drive it.

as far as mounting goes you should lookingto using the end caps as the means of mounting the wing to the car. all of the hardware that mounts to the underside of the wing makes the wing less efficient. the underside of the wing is usually more important than the top side. but some rules dont allow for this type of mounting because it improves the wings efficiency too much. usually this in on cars that are going way too fast and this rule is tossed in to slow them down, so depending on the class you are running in, it may not matter.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I haven't decided on the type of mounting bracketry or method of adjustment. Turnbuckles are convenient, but they are high drag and may affect the wing's lower surface airflow. </TD></TR></TABLE>

whoops i didnt see that you had allready mentioned the underside of the wing allready when i made my post.

i didnt mean to repeat what has allready been said.

descartesfool

I like my Mugen wing. One piece aluminum extrusion profile, completely smooth, two full height end plates all the way down to the original mounting points on the DC2 lid. It has three adjustment positions and overall is very nicely made. If it was carbon, that would be better.

slofu

i'm pretty sure that i've seen CF replicas on ebay. from what i've gathered, the Mugen wing was actually wind-tunnel tested and engineered, vs. 99% of the others modelled after park benches, etc. for looks.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slofu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm pretty sure that i've seen CF replicas on ebay. from what i've gathered, the Mugen wing was actually wind-tunnel tested and engineered, vs. 99% of the others modelled after park benches, etc. for looks. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i wont say that i think mugen is lying about thier wind tunnel testing, i just find it odd that they do all of this wind tunnel testing and then they dont ever supply any data to show why thier **** is more expensive.

som of thier stuff really looks like a big improvement over other manufacturers designs but some of it i dont know what the fvck they were thinking. such as the s2000 body kit that they sell. its pretty damn pricey and at first glance it doesnt look like it would do much in the way of generating downforce. now, looks can be decieving when it comes to aerodynamics and maybe they designed thier piece based completley off of the data that they got from wind tunnel testing. who knows if they dont give any data. and i dont even know what the goal of tat particular kit is, whether its to lower drag or increase downforce or both, but it certainly doesnt look like a high downforce set up to me. now the jays racing bumper and some of the amuse stuff actually looks like a better design.

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I like my Mugen wing. One piece aluminum extrusion profile, completely smooth, two full height end plates all the way down to the original mounting points on the DC2 lid. It has three adjustment positions and overall is very nicely made. If it was carbon, that would be better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think the Mugen wing is one of the best designs for their intended purpose - a small amount of downforce with reasonable drag. I measured the airfoil section on an authentic Mugen wing and I found it to have a reasonable leading edge radius, which is generally done to reduce leading edge separation for varying angles of attack. The airfoil is moderatly cambered which helps to generate more downforce than less cambered designs. The chord is only about 7 inches and span 46 inches, so even if the wing could generate a reasonable Coefficient of Lift (Cl max) of 1.0, the amout of downforce at 100 mph would be about 50 - 55 lbs.

If the Cl appears low to some of you, remember that at lower Reynolds numbers, the lift coefficient is not as large as it would be for higher Reynolds number for the same airfoil section. In addition, 3D flow effects due to wing tip vorticity also serves to reduce Cl (3D) verses Cl (2D). The Cl's given in most books such as Abbott and Von Doenhoff are wind tunnel tests of infinite aspect ratio wings, which are if effect Cl (2D) values. In addition, the A and VD Cl's are based on tests done at Reynolds numbers of more than 3 million to 6 million, which is far greater than the Mugen wing will ever see. For the Mugen wing the Reynolds number will be about 500,000 to 700,00 at racing speeds.

ekim952522000

what is the best style of wing for hatch backs
I just don't think the spoon style that everyone runs could provide much downforce.

NegativeLift

i think racecar engineering had an article about wings a few issues back. it might have been the one w the bonneville 400 project on the cover.

ekim952522000

This cars wing looks like it works

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NegativeLift &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think racecar engineering had an article about wings a few issues back. it might have been the one w the bonneville 400 project on the cover.</TD></TR></TABLE>

it was a good read

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is the best style of wing for hatch backs
I just don't think the spoon style that everyone runs could provide much downforce.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the duckbill is not going to be effective to produce any substantial amount of downforce.
what it does do is it extends the point where the air "drops" off of the roof a little further back so that the majority of the car is unneffected resulting in less drag. you will often see loger versions of this setup on drag civics.

slammed_93_hatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is the best style of wing for hatch backs
I just don't think the spoon style that everyone runs could provide much downforce.</TD></TR></TABLE>

IIRC the spoon duckbill, doesn't really provide downforce. and that wing is illegal for honda challenge, considering the fact it is completly out of the body lines.

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is the best style of wing for hatch backs
I just don't think the spoon style that everyone runs could provide much downforce.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The best wing for a hatchback is determined the same way that the best wing for a coupe is determined. The position of the wing in terms of both height and rearward location will affect the cars center of pressure, which is the point in space where the resultant of the aerodynamic forces that act on the car. The wing should be slightly higher than the local boundary layer thickness so it is acted upon by the fastest clean air possible. If the wing is too low, the air velocity is not very large and a bigger wing would be necessary to balance the high speed aero. Remember, the pressure increases as the square of the velocity (see Bernoulli's Equation), so you want to maximize the velocity to maximize the pressure. The key to a good wing is one that balances the car in high speed situations without generating too much drag.
In addition to a good wing, an airdam and splitter should be ultilized on race and track only cars to get good front downforce. The wing should by sized and the airfoil selected based on the most efficient design possible in order to generate the necessary downforce. That is, the wing should only produce enough downforce to balance the car and to provide the best compromise of downforce to drag. This compromise would result in the best overall lap time.


Modified by Johnny Mac at 12:40 AM 4/3/2006

ekim952522000

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

IIRC the spoon duckbill, doesn't really provide downforce. and that wing is illegal for honda challenge, considering the fact it is completly out of the body lines.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Really? What do you mean out of the body lines it doesn't seem more out of the body lines then any other wing I see on honda challenge cars?

Would it also be illegal for H1.

I've read the rules many time and have to disagree with you on this one.

lastturn

for a coupe??? i heard that the type R' wing is wind tunnel tested. so im guessing that hieght is good??? just have to get the angle for what you like down??

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lastturn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for a coupe??? i heard that the type R' wing is wind tunnel tested. so im guessing that hieght is good??? just have to get the angle for what you like down?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

i wouldnt put much faith in a factory wing on many cars. you can certainly do better than the design on the type r. for all we know they tested it and modified it so that it didnt make any noise or something to that effect. technically it is windtunnel tested, but not necessarily for great performance.

i could be totally wrong, im just saying...