patentguy

Jack Hammer noise is back. This is the most aggravating problem. It happens mainly when the car is at highway speed and the car is under load (like I'm going up a large hill and the throttle is at half position). This is a sporadic problem. It doesn't happen all the time which is the frustrating part. Most of the time when I romp on the accelerator I don't hear anything, but every once in a while when I'm under load at highway speeds I get a very strong vibration that resembles a jack hammer (starts soft and gets louder until it is substantial). If I let off the throttle it stops immediately. If I stay off the throttle for a little bit then I can romp on it and no vibration.

I first thought that this could be a balancer belt that I recently replaced. But then it would probably be something predictable at a certain RPM. Plus I do remember setting it at TDC before taking off the crank pulley and when I put both belts on the timing marks were right on the money (I had the drill in service hole of the rear balancer shaft and the timing mark on the front balancer shaft was right on). This was before tensioning the belt. Would it shift that much after tensioning? I also thought it might be the tires. One belt was broken and I had all tires replaced this weekend with Kumho 795's and had the alignment done as well as the left outer tie rod end replaced (before alignment). Still the problem persists. I'm beginning to think that it must be something having to do with ignition. I think I might get that kind of vibration if one cylinder wasn't firing because vibration is proportional to RPM (faster or slower vibrations when in different gears at the same speed). Would faulty wires or dissy do this? I just purchased the car less then a month ago so I don't know if they have ever been replaced. I have just dropped a ton of money into this car in the last couple of weeks and don't want to replace anything if that isn't causing the problem. Please help me!!

I have a separate question for you guys. I bought a professional timing light that I thought that I would need for the timing belt change. I didn't need it and could get 125 back if I returned it. Is this something that I would really use in the future? If so I probably could get a cheaper one that doesn't measure voltage or dwell but still measures RPM and times. What do you guys and gals think? Thanks in advance!!!

-Dan

P_Adams

Check the distributor cap and rotor for any indication of carbon tracks or burning through to ground. This will look like pencil tracks inside the cap, a reflective blue patch inside the cap and a burn mark under the rotor's center contact.
You could have a condition when under load the spark energy finds an easier path to ground then the spark plug path.

P

conker

I have been sticking with your situation as it is similar to mine. I still think it is clutch related. The first place you will see slippage on a normally worn clutch is under a load in higher gears. This is exactly what you are describing and I suspect there is contamination or a hot spot that lines up between your clutch disc and flywheel causing a brief slip. I get it when I feather the clutch to start off in first, you are getting it on the other end because your clutch disc is on it's way out and starting to slip under a load. Essentially both are feathering, one intentional and one normal wear. How old is your clutch disc (I am at an unbelievable 290,000 miles )?


Modified by conker at 9:07 AM 2/21/2006

patentguy

Conker- I have 159K on the odometer. I don't know if the clutch has ever been replaced.

P- Do you think that I might have a bent axle. Like an idiot I used the axle to hold my rachet attched to the pulley holding tool so that I could crack loose the crank pulley bolt. I'm wondering if I could have bent the axle?? How would I be able to tell that I damaged it without replacing it? The guy I bought the car from put two new axles on the car (maybe 2k miles ago). The vibration was there before I did the t-belt change but it was a little worse afterwards I think. Tonight I will check the cap and rotor as you suggest to make sure that this is not an ignition problem. I guess I should also add that I just passed the state inspection and I know that they did look at the axles. I'm wondering if a bent axle is something they would have noticed....


Modified by patentguy at 9:25 AM 2/21/2006

LookingForVTEC

I think that you have a bad CV axle. (or maybe a wheel bearing but most likely a cv axle)

P_Adams

I seriously doubt that your pulley holding fixture could generate enough force to bend the axle. It needs something closer to having a tow truck driver hooking the winch cable to the axle to yank it onto the Flatbed.
Besides, an obviously bent axle will feel much the same thru the steering wheel (during accelleration) as a warped rotor feels during braking.
As to the clutch issue brought up; the condition discribed would be a clutch "chatter" which is seen during clutch hook up as opposed to slipping. In the real world, either a clutch slips or it chatters; they don't do both (because they're caused by different conditions.
Chatter is caused by the clutch prematurely trying to grab (from either contamination or raised hot spots on the flywheel) and then releasing because of partial Pressure Plate clamping pressure.
Slipping is caused by insufficient clamping pressure and the subsiquent glazed Clutch Disc friction material from excessive heat.

Besides checking the Dist cap & rotor, I'd throw a couple of cans of dry gas in the tank. You may have picked up some water somewhere.

P

patentguy

Update:

P-Your description of a bent axle actually describes what I'm getting pretty well. With further investigation I noticed that vibration isn't proportional to RPM's but to speed. Also, now that you've mentioned that it sounds/ feels like a warped rotor I can see the resemblance. I do get the vibration on the steering wheel when I accelerate. It is less sporadic and more regular now when I accelerate. I'm wondering if replacing the outer tie rod end when i got new tires dampened the movement of the axle at first and now it's back to where it used to be before it was changed.

Here are a couple of things that I've noticed. If I jerk the steering wheel to the right the noise stops momentarily. If I jerk the steering wheel to the left the vibration gets louder. Also, the periods that I was getting the vibration when the vibration was sporadic was after heavy acceleration (after coming out of the tolls).

Thanks for all your guys help!!
-Dan

P_Adams

Whatever your problem, It's in the right front suspension/wheel area.
reason?
When you jerk the wheel to the right, the loads are shifted to the l/side and deminish on the right. Noise-vibration lessens
Conversly, lerking to the left adds load to the right; lessening it on the left. Noise-vibration increases.
Bent rim, Broken belt in tire, worn inner/outer tie rod end.... as a guess.

P

patentguy

When you say right- you are referring to my designation, correct? IE the passenger side wheel well? The car just passed state inspection. I'm not entirely sure what they check, but what would cause this that could possibly fall through the cracks?

-Dan

P_Adams

Most states check
Ball Joints
Brake Pads
Tire tread depth

They're actually supposed to check everything; but for the $47.00 they charge around here, it's more like a "Give it a Hail Mary and throw it on the machine" sinario.

P

P_Adams

Always as you're sitting in the car.
USA:
Left = Drivers Side
Right = Passengers Side

patentguy

Thanks P!

Sounds like it could easily fall through the cracks then.....

So how do I diagnose the problem? I think I remember putting the car up on jack stands and then grabing the tire at like the 3 and 9 and seeing if it is loose. But I don't remember what the positions were and what each meant. Any other methods that I am missing? Come to think of it I think that the car was side swiped before i bought it. Front right fender is dented and so is the RR door panel. I wonder if something was damaged in the crash that wasn't fixed.

Thanks for all your help!!

-Dan

PS- it almost feels like I have a lumpy tire or something, but the tires were just replaced, balanced and aligned.

P_Adams

If you can safely raise the front of the car (such that the wheels hang unsupported), start the engine and put it in first. If you've got either a bent rim or a bad tire, it will become readily apparent as the tire tread will look like it's jumping back and forth as the bad spot goes by.
With it still up in the air, shut the engine off.
Grab the right wheel at the 12 and 6 o'clock position and try to rock the wheel back and forth. then change your hand position to 9 and 3 o'clock position. There should be no appreciable movement.
Pay particular attention to the 9/3 test. If any movement, suspect worn inner/outer tie rods.

P

MuthaFodder

If you still haven't fixed it I would check the upper control arm.....if that's not it I bet the spring is busted at the base and you just can't see it.

I had a Prelude once and experienced exactly what you described, I replaced the CV axle and as I was putting the 'fork' back on I noticed the busted spring.....busted spring led to upper control arm failure.

I thought my clutch was going at first.....later I thought loose brake shoes.....I would jerk the car one way and it would stop.....exactly like you describe.

patentguy

I haven't put my accord up on jack stands yet because it's been really cold this week. (-10 or so with wind chill). I suspect that the tie rod ends are fine though because I just had an alignment and they did find that the left outer tie rod end was bad and replaced that. I suspect that if the right outer or inner tie rod end was bad that they would have found it also.

When I had the tires replaced the guy showed me that one of my front tires was rubbed bald on either the outer or inner edge. It was strange though because the bald spot didn't go all the way around the tire, just about 1/4 of the way around. I thought that that indicated a broken belt on the tire, but he thought it was a suspension/ alignment problem.

Also, I know that the car was side swiped on the side that has problems. The front right quarter panel looks like someone tried to pound it out with a small hammer a million times. I wonder if the accident jacked up the upper control arm or the knuckle or spring. How would you know that either of these has failed?

Thanks!!!

-Dan

jakks20

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LookingForVTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think that you have a bad CV axle. (or maybe a wheel bearing but most likely a cv axle)</TD></TR></TABLE>

P_Adams

If you're seeing accellerated tire wear along either the inner or outer tread crown area; you've got a problem with Camber (the tire is either tilting in or out when viewed from the front)
Some in this forum advocate the use of camber to enhance handling while road racing (ever notice the l/s tire tilt on Nascar rides (it's for those continuous l/h turns)). But from my experiences as the only tech doing alignments for 5 years, There are reasons for factory specs.
Surprisingly, only two of the three alignment perameters cause tire wear.
Camber and Toe-in/out
Camber will cause the tire to wear either on the inside or outside tread area
Toe will cause a condition called feathering (saw-tooth wear). Since the tire isn't really rolling straight, there is a side friction component which causes the tread blocks to wear like an eraser. If you were to draw your hand over the tread (side to side), it would feel smooth in one direction but rough going the other direction
Reference:
http://www.familycar.com/CarCa...e.htm

Depending which direction the tire is tilted, you could have a bent control arm.
If it's tilted in on the top, suspect the upper control arm (or the knuckle)
If it's tilted in on the bottom, suspect the lower control arm (or the Knuckle)

P

hondamark35

as for the timing light, if it's really good quality, hold on to it. if it's not something you think is going to last 10 or 15 years, get somthing simpler of good quality and keep it in a safe place. it'll come in handy if you plan on doing any or all of your own work.

MuthaFodder

With the wheel off grab hold of the upper control arm (may look different) and check for extreme play. The bushings behind the bolts labeled 'B' will be the likely culprit.

My spring was cracked at the base and rear just behind the red arrow. You will not likely notice this unless you are actually looking for this.

I have replaced many Honda CV axles in my life and was sure that was my problem, as it does appear to have the same symptoms. I had a clicking but it was more like when I first put it under load in first gear, incline or decline at low speeds, or at highway speeds.

I would only agree it is a CV axle if at low speeds (&lt;5mph) and with the wheel turned, you hear the constant clicking symptom.

Regardless, I would visually check these out first before wasting money on repairs you may not need.


Modified by MuthaFodder at 7:05 PM 2/27/2006

MuthaFodder

You gonna fix this?

..........follow-up.....don't leave us hanging

patentguy

MF- Thanks for the Picture!! This will help out alot. I plan to put the car up on jack stands Saturday whether it is really cold or not. I suspect it won't take too long to check the tie rod ends, ball joints, and upper control arm bushings.

I've had CV problems before (on two different cars) and the sound is different than what I am getting now. Instead of a clicking noise I get more of a pounding, rubbery noise. I guess we'll see this weekend what the deal is.

Hondamark35- I think the timing light would probably last awhile. Besides setting the timing after swapping out the distributor, when else would i use it?

patentguy

OK, I put the car up on jack stands today. There was absolutely no play in the tie rod ends and ball joints as far as I could tell. AS for the upper control arm I could not get the tire off once I had taken off the lug nuts. I even tried using a rubber mallet but to no avail. I was able to reach in and grab the upper control arm and check for extreme play. I thought once I was able to move it, but subsequent tries proved it wouldn't budge.

I did however notice that the tread would move alittle bit like the tire was wobbly. I noticed that the axle seemed bumpy as well. Not sure how much the axel is supposed to move when the tires are rotating (up and down wise). Both axels seemed bumpy.

As for the mounts I didn't see any obvious tears or anything (although it is really hard to be able to see the inside of the mount).

What do you guys think?

MuthaFodder

You need to get that tire off. Put the rear tire on the front and the front on the rear, go for a drive and see if the vibration moves to the rear.

You need to find out why your tire won't come off and if it is on the hub flush or not...that would cause vibration in itself. If it wasn't and you have been driving around on loose lug nuts...well that just isn't good.

Were you able to remove all four lug nuts?


Modified by MuthaFodder at 12:12 AM 3/5/2006

patentguy

All four lug nuts came off just fine. In fact they didn't seem to be extremely torqued down like they usually do when they are put on with air rachets. (I was able to take them off while the front tires were still in the air). I'm thinking all the pounding going on in that front right wheel well must have stuck the tire on pretty good. I've never had trouble getting a tire off before. It's a little odd.

MuthaFodder

No doubt its odd....get that tire off and hold off on assuming until you can get in there and investigate.

Your thread has caught the attention of quite a few Techies, so I would be as clear and thorough as possible from here on out.