thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
10-24-2005, 03:37 PM
#76
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster (ohjolt2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you did adjust the hemi's for caster they would bind at a certain point. The hemi can only take so much of an angle. And i think you would have to adjust them quite drastically to get the caster change desired.</TD></TR></TABLE>
"That thing got a Heim?"
"That thing got a Heim?"
06-18-2006, 12:17 PM
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Re: (Cyclonium)
They're awesome....
I haven't used those particular ones, becuase I have a VW, not a honda, but I have something similar. On a VW, the ball joint is attached to the control arm, and has a 19mm stud that goes into the bottom of the steering knuckle and is fixed with a 10mm pinch bolt. I made some Chromoly 2.5 inch spacers on my lathe....hoping that it would allow me to lower the car another 2 inches without any adverse effects on the roll center and the rest of the front end geometry. After revision #10 of the spacers, I was finally able to design a set that was stiff enough to be effective. I spent a weekend at SOW beating on the car pretty hard, and inspection after the event showed no signs of weekness. As for the performance increase.....I was probably a second or so faster per lap, but I had made a bunch of other changes as well, so who knows how much of that second was a result of the modified geometry.
in the roll center adjusters from J's, they should be plenty strong. The load on the ball joint will decrease, while the load on the steering knuckle, where the ball joint is pressed in will increase. The knuckles generally have enough strength so that this is not a problem.
I haven't used those particular ones, becuase I have a VW, not a honda, but I have something similar. On a VW, the ball joint is attached to the control arm, and has a 19mm stud that goes into the bottom of the steering knuckle and is fixed with a 10mm pinch bolt. I made some Chromoly 2.5 inch spacers on my lathe....hoping that it would allow me to lower the car another 2 inches without any adverse effects on the roll center and the rest of the front end geometry. After revision #10 of the spacers, I was finally able to design a set that was stiff enough to be effective. I spent a weekend at SOW beating on the car pretty hard, and inspection after the event showed no signs of weekness. As for the performance increase.....I was probably a second or so faster per lap, but I had made a bunch of other changes as well, so who knows how much of that second was a result of the modified geometry.
in the roll center adjusters from J's, they should be plenty strong. The load on the ball joint will decrease, while the load on the steering knuckle, where the ball joint is pressed in will increase. The knuckles generally have enough strength so that this is not a problem.
11-12-2006, 05:14 PM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In my thoughts it's been both the weight and the geometry equally - those things (stock uprights) are HEAVY.
But forget titanium - there's crazy, and then there's KRAZY. 1018/1020 - and no heat treat. KISS.
My image is of sheet/plate and tube welded structure like the Ryane's - lots of section and lots of air.
Scott, who sees himself doing this in....uh....winter of 2006?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yay. Winter is here.
But forget titanium - there's crazy, and then there's KRAZY. 1018/1020 - and no heat treat. KISS.
My image is of sheet/plate and tube welded structure like the Ryane's - lots of section and lots of air.
Scott, who sees himself doing this in....uh....winter of 2006?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yay. Winter is here.
06-24-2010, 01:48 PM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
only just found this thread while searching for ideas on rear rol centre adjustment. I have noticed that no on seems to think about the angle of the rear control arms and effects of dynamic camber there on lowered cars.
also, there is indeed alot of options for lowereing the mass of the various suspension components. the rear trailing arms and front knuckes comined are in the region of 20-30kg all in.
also, there is indeed alot of options for lowereing the mass of the various suspension components. the rear trailing arms and front knuckes comined are in the region of 20-30kg all in.
06-24-2010, 01:50 PM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
only just found this thread while searching for ideas on rear rol centre adjustment. I have noticed that no on seems to think about the angle of the rear control arms and effects of dynamic camber there on lowered cars.
also, there is indeed alot of options for lowereing the mass of the various suspension components. the rear trailing arms and front knuckes comined are in the region of 20-30kg all in.
as fro the adjustment of front roll centre and the addition of j's or any other similar product, there are benefits in adding them for sure.
also, there is indeed alot of options for lowereing the mass of the various suspension components. the rear trailing arms and front knuckes comined are in the region of 20-30kg all in.
as fro the adjustment of front roll centre and the addition of j's or any other similar product, there are benefits in adding them for sure.
06-25-2010, 11:05 AM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
Adjusting RC via the ball joint seldom 'corrects' RC location....meaning, they almost never in my experience bring RC back to stock. Keep in mind too that camber affects RC location - the angle of either the strut tower/upper control arm and lower control arm in FV form the instant axis and then RC...track width changes will also affect RC location - wider usually raises RC location.
They can be very valuable for making LCA as horizontal as possible and this is worth the effort in my opinion.
They can be very valuable for making LCA as horizontal as possible and this is worth the effort in my opinion.
06-25-2010, 02:15 PM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
Since this thread popped up...
On the DC2 running at typical racing ride height etc blah blah blah these type extended lower ball joints that lower the lbj by approx 3/4-inch raise the static front krc approx 1-1/2 inches and reduces very greatly the lateral migration of that point in roll and combined roll/bump.
Also, I'm informed by a well informed source that these type lbj's have been used in japanese competition and appear to hold up (the specific example cited was Buddy Club which my source happens to sell).
Scott, who'll be installing them on the front of his kaa prior to it's next outing...but note that I'm also lowering the inner end of the rear uca giving a rear kmc a bit higher than the front which I think you should probably do something like if you're going to do the front..."But I could be wrong"...
On the DC2 running at typical racing ride height etc blah blah blah these type extended lower ball joints that lower the lbj by approx 3/4-inch raise the static front krc approx 1-1/2 inches and reduces very greatly the lateral migration of that point in roll and combined roll/bump.
Also, I'm informed by a well informed source that these type lbj's have been used in japanese competition and appear to hold up (the specific example cited was Buddy Club which my source happens to sell).
Scott, who'll be installing them on the front of his kaa prior to it's next outing...but note that I'm also lowering the inner end of the rear uca giving a rear kmc a bit higher than the front which I think you should probably do something like if you're going to do the front..."But I could be wrong"...
06-26-2010, 04:31 PM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
used to have a set on my car, unfortuneatly they didn't last that long. i think they only held up for about two years of street use (car stored in winters) before they started to get play in them. to be fair though, there are some incredibly bad roads where i live.
i would have bought another set, but for the price, going back to oem seemed like i much smarter choice
i would have bought another set, but for the price, going back to oem seemed like i much smarter choice
06-29-2010, 09:57 AM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
Using a kinematics program of sorts...like Inventor? Is this after or before camber asjustments? I probably should have narrowed my comment to a Mac Strut...
Since this thread popped up...
On the DC2 running at typical racing ride height etc blah blah blah these type extended lower ball joints that lower the lbj by approx 3/4-inch raise the static front krc approx 1-1/2 inches and reduces very greatly the lateral migration of that point in roll and combined roll/bump.
Also, I'm informed by a well informed source that these type lbj's have been used in japanese competition and appear to hold up (the specific example cited was Buddy Club which my source happens to sell).
Scott, who'll be installing them on the front of his kaa prior to it's next outing...but note that I'm also lowering the inner end of the rear uca giving a rear kmc a bit higher than the front which I think you should probably do something like if you're going to do the front..."But I could be wrong"...
On the DC2 running at typical racing ride height etc blah blah blah these type extended lower ball joints that lower the lbj by approx 3/4-inch raise the static front krc approx 1-1/2 inches and reduces very greatly the lateral migration of that point in roll and combined roll/bump.
Also, I'm informed by a well informed source that these type lbj's have been used in japanese competition and appear to hold up (the specific example cited was Buddy Club which my source happens to sell).
Scott, who'll be installing them on the front of his kaa prior to it's next outing...but note that I'm also lowering the inner end of the rear uca giving a rear kmc a bit higher than the front which I think you should probably do something like if you're going to do the front..."But I could be wrong"...
06-30-2010, 04:34 AM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
I'm surprised to read that correction was that effective, especially lateral migration...but I haven't seen everthing in this life for sure. Is the new static location higher or lower than stock?
03-30-2011, 05:03 AM
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Re: thoughts on j's roll-center adjuster
As was mentioned previously, the biggest concern will be the structural integrity of the upright itself and not the part (assuming the company uses high quality components). If I'm not mistaken, the upright is a cast iron part. The moment acting on the lower upright mount increases greatly when you distance the ball joint away from the upright. Cast iron does like bend when over-stressed. It breaks.
So, in short, having someone tell you it works, is not valid information. Of course it works. The question is, will the upright hold under track abuse and for how long? If the design load on the upright is 500lbs at 2 inches (83ft-lbs) for an infinite life cycle, what happens when you double the moment arm to 4 inches? You now have a bending moment of over 160ft-lbs. What about if you are running race rubber which increases the load to 650lbs? You’re now at almost 3 times the torque Honda engineers originally spec’ed for the part. Will it fail in spectacular fashion? Probably. How soon? Who knows. At the very least, it might be a good idea to magnaflux the upright regularly to look for crack propagation. To have your upright split during a race would put a significant damper in your day.
-Adrian
So, in short, having someone tell you it works, is not valid information. Of course it works. The question is, will the upright hold under track abuse and for how long? If the design load on the upright is 500lbs at 2 inches (83ft-lbs) for an infinite life cycle, what happens when you double the moment arm to 4 inches? You now have a bending moment of over 160ft-lbs. What about if you are running race rubber which increases the load to 650lbs? You’re now at almost 3 times the torque Honda engineers originally spec’ed for the part. Will it fail in spectacular fashion? Probably. How soon? Who knows. At the very least, it might be a good idea to magnaflux the upright regularly to look for crack propagation. To have your upright split during a race would put a significant damper in your day.
-Adrian
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