Red Civic Standard -- dyno tuned 2005

[red civic standard]

Motor is '00 JDM ITR with BC 3+ cams, SMSP header, and boltons. Details of my motor can be found at: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199677 Tuned by Steve Sakai at HPworks. Here is a comparison with my setup from last year. Last year I had skunk2 stage 1 cams, AN-R header and boltons. Blue is 2004 with the skunk2 cams. Red is 2005 with the buddy club 3+ cams Ultimately, I would like the midrange numbers of the buddy club cams but the top end of the skunk2 cams. I will be sticking with my stock compression of 11.1:1. What cams would people recommend?

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[DOMKID]

have you ever considered running a skunk2 stage 2 profile cam?

[DIFFUT'S INC.]

nice

[GeeReg]

Was your old S2S1 setup tuned?

[red civic standard]

Originally Posted by GeeReg

Was your old S2S1 setup tuned?

both setups were tuned by steve sakai on the same dyno

[allmotorgsrekk]

im going to try the skunk2 pro1 you might also want to try them.

[Rollo Lawson]

some people love to rev to 9k. me personally, could care less for that extra 10whp@8.5k, because, it does not in any way make up for the 15-18wtq from 4800-5600 or the 10whp over the same spread of the graph. another thing is your set up has changed, not just the cams, so, there is more than one factor that changed your powerband. i find it funny how nobody is satisfied when the power is in the right place. i mean, if this is a street car (like 99% of the cars on here) why do people always want to make power like a drag car? you know, above 8K. it totally eliminates the drivability of the car.

[hybrid_vtec]

Good stuff! You should make out better with your new setup even though you gave up a few hp up top. You picked up a lot in the low to mid range and you peaked 500 rpms sooner!

[TrackSpeedRacing]

#'s are a little bit on the low side.

[RagingAngel]

Steve's got a lot of experience with the Bmotors.....

Did he have any recommendations for you in terms of alternative cams?

[JoeB18R]

ahh good lord I make just as much torque as you with the stock B16A2 cams and intake manifold!

seems as though you have more mods then me, as well as running higher compression (11:1 vs my 10.6:1) I wonder what is hurting your numbers. I managed 170/130 at the wheels and thats with the stock B16A2 cams, intake mani, throttle body and no tune.

BTW Im going with skunk 2 stage 2 cams, I have them sitting here in my room right now. Ill be putting those in with an upgraded CR of 11.5:1

[hybrid_vtec]

Originally Posted by JoeB18R

ahh good lord I make just as much torque as you with the stock B16A2 cams and intake manifold!

seems as though you have more mods then me, as well as running higher compression (11:1 vs my 10.6:1) I wonder what is hurting your numbers. I managed 170/130 at the wheels and thats with the stock B16A2 cams, intake mani, throttle body and no tune.

BTW Im going with skunk 2 stage 2 cams, I have them sitting here in my room right now. Ill be putting those in with an upgraded CR of 11.5:1

Static compression is different from Dynamic(effective) compression! Just b/c he has 11:1 static and you have 10.6:1 static, you probably have the same or more dynamic compression than he does! Bigger cams will bleed off compression lowering your effective compression, as to where your stock cams are allowing you to utilize more of you potential compression(static) as well as stroke!

You can do all the performance shit to your motor that you want but if you dont properly plan and pair parts together and properly tune them then you can harm the potential you have.

Dont knock the guy though b/c his setup now is far superior to his setup from before and it doesnt take a genius to look at the dyno and determine that. Peak numbers dont mean shit accept what you can brag to your buddies about, its about the power band and how you made it to those peak numbers!

[GOLDBERG]

#'s seem kinda low...

[GOLDBERG]

hmmm..maybe its the crank pulley?

[jdmoutkast]

numbers are pretty weak. you should be hitting much much higher #'s

[hybrid_vtec]

Everyone keeps ragging on him for his numbers but did you bother to look at the setup?

He does have a Port n Polish! He has a 70mm TB without HUGE cams or raised compression! And he has a exhaust manifold that is made to support more power than he is producing!

The exhaust manifold is going to help pull air through the head during part of the engine cycle but he needs bigger cams and definitely needs to raise compression!

What is the diameter and length of the collector?

The build was done backwards! Dont choose a exhaust manifold before knowing what your head flows cfm wise at your cams peak lift! Have your setup planned out before hand and have the head flow tested before choosing an exhaust manifold!

[1999all_motoR_teg]

Just remember guys all dyno's read differently on any given day and conditions.

Nice numbers. Can't wait to get mine tuned.

[SMSP]

There's no P&P, the head has never been off the block.

[GOLDBERG]

Originally Posted by hybrid_vtec

Everyone keeps ragging on him for his numbers but did you bother to look at the setup?

He does have a Port n Polish! He has a 70mm TB without HUGE cams or raised compression! And he has a exhaust manifold that is made to support more power than he is producing!

The exhaust manifold is going to help pull air through the head during part of the engine cycle but he needs bigger cams and definitely needs to raise compression!

What is the diameter and length of the collector?

The build was done backwards! Dont choose a exhaust manifold before knowing what your head flows cfm wise at your cams peak lift! Have your setup planned out before hand and have the head flow tested before choosing an exhaust manifold!

so you saying the smsp header is making him lose massive power??or the cams wont work with 11.1cr cause its too low??even tho buddy club said its made too work with like gsr cr which is..lower?i'd say something must be definately wrong with his motor...cause with a smsp header, aebs intake manifold, bored tb and buddclub spec 3+'s hes only making like lil over 10whp over a jdm itr....stock

[JoeB18R]

Originally Posted by hybrid_vtec

Static compression is different from Dynamic(effective) compression! Just b/c he has 11:1 static and you have 10.6:1 static, you probably have the same or more dynamic compression than he does! Bigger cams will bleed off compression lowering your effective compression, as to where your stock cams are allowing you to utilize more of you potential compression(static) as well as stroke!

You can do all the performance shit to your motor that you want but if you dont properly plan and pair parts together and properly tune them then you can harm the potential you have.

Dont knock the guy though b/c his setup now is far superior to his setup from before and it doesnt take a genius to look at the dyno and determine that. Peak numbers dont mean shit accept what you can brag to your buddies about, its about the power band and how you made it to those peak numbers!

If you want to talk about peak numbers thats fine. Im talking about torque and my torque curve, minus the VTEC spike, is almost completly flat.

[hybrid_vtec]

Originally Posted by GOLDBERG

so you saying the smsp header is making him lose massive power??or the cams wont work with 11.1cr cause its too low??even tho buddy club said its made too work with like gsr cr which is..lower?i'd say something must be definately wrong with his motor...cause with a smsp header, aebs intake manifold, bored tb and buddclub spec 3+'s hes only making like lil over 10whp over a jdm itr....stock

try 20 whp over stock!


Also do some research on exhaust technology, too big of an exhaust manifold can hurt you just as much as to small an exhaust manifold

[GOLDBERG]

what maes you think his exhaust manifold is too big??is it custom made for like a 2.1L highhh compression or something??i seriously doubt it...prolly made for a 1.8 or so..and as far as itr's go...165-175whp is the norm,..165 is on the lower side tho..

[HondaRcB]

Looks great man. I have the same cams in my ITR and fell in love with the midrange.

[Kidnkorner]

Originally Posted by hybrid_vtec

Also do some research on exhaust technology, too big of an exhaust manifold can hurt you just as much as to small an exhaust manifold

finally someone says it.
exhaust gas scavenging effect.

too big will hurt the velocity of the exhaust gas pulse, and it wont have the ability to pull the following pulse with it.

[hybrid_vtec]

Originally Posted by GOLDBERG

what maes you think his exhaust manifold is too big??is it custom made for like a 2.1L highhh compression or something??i seriously doubt it...prolly made for a 1.8 or so..and as far as itr's go...165-175whp is the norm,..165 is on the lower side tho..

Custom made huh! Just b/c it is not made by a manufacture doesnt really make it custom! Was it made specifically for that ITR with his setup? NO, it wasnt! It was made just like every other SMSP or Hytech or AN-R, or RMF exhaust manifold! So there for it is really considered a production piece and not so much custom.

Like I stated earlier, do some research on exhaust technology! To successfully create a custom exhaust manifold, first you must know what the head flows at peak cam lift! Then there is a formula to calculate what your optimium primary diameter should be! From this measurement you can calculate what your secondary diameter should be! Next choose your weapon of choice for the collector. And this is going to greatly affect power production: the length of the collector!

How do I know this you ask? B/C I was going to pay ass-raping prices for an exhaust manifold, when i got some good advice from an un-named person, that told to do a REAL custom exhaust manifold and build one myself! So I have been doing a lot of research and discovered a lot odf info on no loss exhaust systems and gotten some really good tips from others.

Now in NO way am I bashing on the exhaust manifolds that are being sold by SMSP, Hytech, RMF, AN-R, etc. However though just b/c you buy on of these exhaust manifolds and slap it on your car doesnt mean that you are going to make power!

For the record, what I am saying his stop bashing on this guy for his setup b/c his numbers seem low! If he is happy with it that is all that matters! Im just trying to shed light on why his numbers may be low!

Originally Posted by Huggy Bear

finally someone says it.
exhaust gas scavenging effect.

too big will hurt the velocity of the exhaust gas pulse, and it wont have the ability to pull the following pulse with it.

Thank God someone else knows what I am talking about!