crashtke

3" v-band I believe. I am sure Geoff can give some insight into the new 400 series if he is allowed.

RedMist

I'm planning on using the EFR 7064, looks very good on paper.

crashtke

We have a twinscroll 7570 (non-efr) going on a Suby this month. I can't wait to see what it does! We have had very good results from the Borg Warner products.

crashtke

REally nice write up and post by Jeff Perrin over on Nasioc.com

















Jeffs conclusion:

On the Dyno Conclusions

The EFR7670 is a turbo that I personally feel compares more like A GT3582R, but spools faster on the dyno (like a GT or GTX3582R w/.63Ar). Comparing the EFR7670 to a GTX3076, its slightly laggier, but that lag is a trade off for more power. Since the GTX3076R and EFR7670 have very similar compressor maps, the HP gained is do to the higher flowing turbine housing/wheel. Since the dyno is very controlled, and a high loaded run, in all these tests the super light Titanium Aluminide turbine wheel doesn't come into play at all. What this does show is the turbine wheel and compressor wheel design is a notch up over the Garrett GTX stuff. From what I have seen Borg Warner has designed a turbo that does what they say it should. It makes more power and spools faster than the GT3582R.

On the Road Conclusions

My conclusions are this. The dyno conclusions do not match what I "feel" on the road. On the road, I feel like this is much more lively than the GT or GTX3076R. Its interesting as in some road tests the EFR7670 shows the same spool up RPM as the GTX3076 w.82ar, but it feels so much snappier between shifts light load low RPM shifts. Meaning the normal day to day 2000-4000RPM shifting is about 50% better than it was before. In some logs I notice that the GTX would show say 2-3psi of boost at these really low RPM's, where the EFR is showing about 5psi. Its only a couple PSI but that makes huge difference in how it feels. You can see this on the dyno graphs where the EFR is making more TQ at 2000-2500.

Under full throttle high RPM acceleration, again the car feels a bit faster. It feels like Its right back on the power. When comparing this to the GTX3582R graphs I have, it blows it out of the water. When comparing it to the GTX3076, its very close in respool time, but there is this thing that just "feels" better.

I am compiling some road going plots of the GTX3076R and EFR and I think this will show what I am feeling.

Final Conclusions

I used to think that there are lots of turbos out there, depending on the size of the turbine, its going to spool at a particular RPM, depending on the compressor wheel used, your redline and boost, its going to make a given HP. So then it was a matter of what size wheels Garrett and others used to create a given turbo and it was a balancing act of spool and HP. But Borg Warner has proven that there is some magic left in its turbos in that it actually spools faster than its comparable GTX/GT3582R turbo and makes almost the same power, if not more on the GT3582R.

PERRIN Performance will hold off on making conclusions about the entire EFR line when we are able to test an EFR7064 and the 8374. After seeing when these spool up, and the HP they make, I think we and other customers can decide if the EFR is here to stay. What I suspect is that the other EFR turbos are going perform better in one way or another to the Garrett product but will fall in between Garret part numbers in some way. That is not bad as it will make for a big balancing act of price, spool, HP, durability, features and feel.

What is next? I am going to beg and beg to get a test EFR 7064 turbo and in the mean time, I should have the test 8374 turbo from Full-Race any day and that will be bolted on and dynoed. I think this turbo will make more power, but I hate to say, I am not going to be running it high enough boost or high enough redline to really see where it kicks butt. For these tests I will be dynoing it purely to see when it builds boost. I will do the 1.7bar and 1.9 bar runs just for fun, but its not going to be making that much more power.....right???

Over the last couple of weeks I have been asked: Are we giving up on Garrett? No way! These turbos are very well proven and while they sometimes have a bad name in the quality department, I can say over the last 2 years we have had 3 warranty issues come up. Relative to how many we have sold, that % is very very low. I see that they will always have their place and customers will always want a Garrett turbo with an external wastegate.

Lots of fun stuff to come over the next few months!


Borg Warner EFR Turbos


EFR7670

Lets start with simple things like pics.

I have a bunch more coming don't worry!



Even the badge is way nicer!




The compressor wheel is amazing looking just wait until the shroud comes off.

http://www.perrinperformance.com/sha...sidebyside.jpg


EFR is 3.25" taller overall and like others have said, this is going to be a challenge to fit into the car for sure!



This is probably my favorite part of the whole turbo. The SS housing is very high quality and the internal wastegate routing is very cool. The angle of the exit is angled perfectly off the inlet. VERY cool.



Another angle showing the turbine.



One of the things i was looking forward is the BOV and how its integrated. It just like the Mini coopers we deal with that have a very similar style. The pressure port is tiny, the spring is pretty weak, but small port means less overall force acting upon it. I know guys are going to be concerned that the port is too small to dump the boost it might see, but it works fine on Minis running 24psi, as well as a bunch of other euro cars. There are stiffer springs available for them but we will have to see how these work first.




The EFR compressor housing is smaller OD than the Garrett. Also has a smaller inlet, which is great for fittment reasons and shouldn't hinder HP at all.


HEre is a side by side of the EFR and the Garrett housings. You can see which one is much nicer. The EFR casting is smooth, not dinged up as though its been thrown across the floor a few times.

Silva Bullit DC4

^^^ VERY nice write up. ^^^

Anxious to see a Honda B series comparison.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

So interesting when I wrote something like this on the Borg-Warner extended tips 6 years ago, and people were out like the mob with torches and shotguns to kill me for the fact that I brought up something other than Garretts. Now, something like this gets put up in a similar fashion, and its all "nice write up"!!!

I guess I'm finally human like everyone else...

97CWITR

What kind of price tag do these have?

Full-Race Geoff

the turbos are all listed here: http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/

Silva Bullit DC4

LOL, I remember that back when I was a lurker and non-member.

Unlike them though, I was a ETT fan from the start, but it just goes to show you, bandwagoning was "the ****" for most back then, and probably still is.

Geoff, will the EFR 9180 non-WG have an integrated BOV bypass feature or kit?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Hell yeah, there's still bandwagonning, it hasn't stopped since 2002.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

All of the EFR turbos have integrated BOV, they have a kit to disable the feature, however.

92TypeR

Saw this last night. EFR-6758 open scroll custom housing for Cobalt SS/T manifold.

540whp on a mustang dyno through a 49 lb/min turbo

35psi


28psi


EFR 6758

Bugermass

I think you may be comparing, DynaPak numbers to my Mustang dyno numbers.. Also, holding 30PSI on a 2L 4cyl is different than holding 30PSI on a 3L inline 6..

The one on the supra, was a pre-release EFR that wasn't internally gated, so it definatly wasn't a wastegate actuator issue.

Time will tell. They may be great turbos, but my first experience wasn't that great.

RedMist

Using BW's own "Matchbot" the 6758 isn't capable of flowing anywhere near that! The torque spread is WILD and making me once again rethink my BW selection... from 6758 -> 7064 -> 7670 back down to the 7064. Would be fantastic to see what a 7064 can do on a 2ltr format.

92TypeR

The only thing I see in that test that could explain the results is that the 6758 in that test was running at the very upper limit of the pressure ratio defined in their compressor map, and the car was running e85, which itself adds 15-20% to the power potential advertised from BW.

If a 6758 can hit 540whp, a 7064 should be able to do 600-650

.RTErnie

Jeff Perrin should know better....

The EFR turbo's perform better at higher pressure ratios. Testing an EFR at 24-27psi shows the strong points of the GT series turbochargers. We all know the GT series stuff, because we've been running it for the better part of a DECADE.

If Jeff wanted to perform a complete test IMO... he would've ran both chargers at 35psi.


FURTHERMORE... he's comparing an EBC controlled external gate to an EBC controlled internal gate. We all know the external gate will keep the gate closed and produce better spool up numbers.

I say thank you Jeff for doing testing, but you should know your product better than that to give the Garrett 2 unfair advantages.

-Eric Urness

RedMist

Sorry Eric, unfortunately I don't. Can you please explain?

DC-2uned

First off, I would really like to thank Jeff of Perrin and Geoff of Full-Race for sharing all there experiences and data with the community in an accurate and unbiased manner. Those dynos versus similar and larger sized Garrett, really show just how capable and versatile this new EFR series really is. Then seeing that 6758 make 540whp at just 35psi when they're only rated for 49lbs flow (~490hp) on a mustang dyno no less. I would say Borg has a winning new product here, they may not be for the real budget minded guy just trying to slap together a quick home-made kit or the all out racers who already have dual 44 gates off an all v-band topmount. But, I think they are a great starting point or upgrade for someone putting together a nice kit with enough room to fit the unit. Crashtke stated it well...
So saying his prices are accurate, which they are and if anything they're on the lower end, you're really only paying just over a grand for the turbo itself (meaning center section/bearings, exhaust+compressor wheels and housings). I'd say this makes the Borgs not only competitive but one of the better options available today considering all the technology and design crammed into the unit. The only real negative aspect I see with them is the actual size of the unit, which may be hard to fit in some applications. I'm sure with the use of creative manifolds and relocation of certain lines/components(Rad hoses,wiring, battery,etc.) people will find ways around it. I am in no way affiliated with Borg or any company for that matter and simply give praise where it is do. So tuners/entusiats keep the info coming and bandwagoners try to complain elsewhere because so far this is a greatly informative thread.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

EM2Civic

But don't the precision billets perform better than the GTX's?

Full-Race Geoff

sierra sierra runs a mustang dyno, and at high elevation. I do not believe your claim that this was a pre-release EFR... i know where all the pre-release external WG EFR turbos went, and none of them ended up in TX for a supra

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Heh heh. That's strictly a matter of opinion based upon each company's design. that's up to the individual owner to decide. Aerodynamic design changes can be very subtle.

Bugermass

Zack Webb got one from you for his Green MKIV

In any case, Its only one example that I've seen first hand, so they may be great and may just have not been ideal for his application. I'm just stating what I have seen first hand and not just getting some info off the internet.. I'm cautious about getting on bandwagons before I actually see things first hand (cough cough GTX cough). Most of the time the hype never really translates into real world. But I'm still interested in testing one of the final releases to see how it compares to the PTE stuff.

LightningTeg

I dont think these turbos will find much market for us honda peeps just due to the sizes and custom fabrication needed to make them work. Maybe in time when some manifolds are made. Id like to see what full race can make for a "standard" kit.

EM2Civic

Thanks for the info just the general consensus I got was that the PTE billets outperformed their GTX counterparts throughout the board.