Kevin Johnson

This is what I do -- analyze oil related isues. I take it seriously.

Ok. I went out to the shop and looked at a B18C and B16A3 block I have. First thing -- there are morphology differences between the two castings. Cognitive science teaches us that you must first attend to likenesses and then to differences. The human mind is very poor at noting both simultaneously.

Second thing. I removed the [edit: dipstick tube] from both and measured. Wonder of wonders the B16A3 tube is shorter. Five mm shorter. At a glance they appear to be identical. Get out a pan and tell me the incremental increase (or decrease) in volume. Or are the hole faces a different distance to the oil pan rail (say). That would compound the problem. And maybe swap the dipsticks too -- can anybody measure them?

Let me ask: Am I the first person on Honda-Tech to _ever_ notice this? Yikes.



It means that the rotating assembly would be churning the oil for that much longer. In one second at 6000 rpms the oil surface would be struck 100 times. If you look at data-logging for cars with this type of issue you will see that seconds of duration are critical. It also affects the OEM dry sumped Vette engines, btw, z07, z09.


Well, now there is the possibility he was and then he wasn't. Right?

Attention to details, people.

Stinkycheezmonky

Just so we're clear, this is your occupation? Credentials and experience count for a lot here, and I am happy to see people with hard, solid data contributing

Sorry, nope Not sure about who else, but I at least knew that. I would bet that 92TypeR knows it as well.

The 'Vette thing I've heard of, but didn't know the details behind it. It was surprising to me, given the fact that they are dry sumped (which I had always understood was specifically designed to prevent such problems). I don't know enough about either system to compare them, or to know about any other system that might be affected. Can you elaborate on that?

Lastly, while I have no "data" to back up my theory, there really are not that many Honda guys having oil pressure issues outside of pan baffling or pump failure (or to a lesser degree, forgetting to put the gasket between the pickup tube and the block). Like before, I understand your logic, but I'm not sure that it applies in this particular situation. If it did, it seems to me that it would show up more often. Or is it possible that it is happening, but is not detectable maybe? Am I mistaken?

92TypeR

Components originated from a factory B18C5, and migrated to another B18C. Blocks are of the same casting and same machined oil galleys.

It is common knowledge that B16A/B17A oil components are not compatable with B18/B16B blocks and timing assemblies (different deck height). The oil pumps are different, as are the pickup and pan. Althought they share a common bolt pattern, and the potential for such a interchange of parts exists, it is not the case in this situation.

The more I think about it, the more I tend to assume cause to the oil pump, and specifically the oil pump gear. There are many documented cases of the oil pump gear failing well before the recommended service interval, especially with high RPM use. ProDrive made a replacement gear at one point.

It would be nice to get some minds working on what the root cause is for this issue, as I am not likely to be the last person to experience it.

Kevin Johnson

Our company is tiny (my wife, Samantha nee Ishihara, and I) but we have designed and made more windage control products for more different engines from more different marques than any other company in the world. It is not even close.


Edit: Forgive me -- I meant to write the "dipstick tube." The dipstick tube pressed into the block is 5mm shorter. This changes the depth that the dipstick seats.


The oil migrates to the corners of the sump and floods the windage tray. It is churned and aerated. The tank does not have the deaeration capabilities to deal with it at the extrema.

If the pump was worn it may have been at the edge of its capability to compress highly aerated oil to the relief valve limit for a given rpm. That does not mean that with a new pump the issue is gone. It just means the new pump is capable of meeting the flow and pressure requirements.

Aerating oil is a sign of energy being lost. On my website I have pictures of the oil witness marks from two B-series trays. Clearly there is a large amount of oil bouncing off of the windage tray. If you flood that tray with migrating oil then that migrating oil is going to bounce around too.

I guess it all depends at what level you're pushing the cars. Many people never have problems or at least they never know (or care) they have problems. I make parts for people pushing their engines.

Kevin Johnson

I apologize for the confusion. Did you measure the length of the dipstick tubes? And the dipsticks? A 5mm variance is probably easily a quart of oil.

Stinkycheezmonky

I'm referring to racers and track day participants. They are certainly pushing their engines.

Thank you for the information!

Would you mind listing your website? Understood if not.

Kevin Johnson

http://www.crank-scrapers.com

In the interim I went out and took the pans and trays for the B16A3 and B18C and measured the effect of oil level fills with respect to lateral acceleration.

OEM pan design typically has the sump baffle also acting as a windage tray. The level of the baffles demarcates the running level of the sump oil reservoir. Against the stock fill of 4.2 quarts I figured that 2.2 quarts were normally in circulation. The pans appear to agree with this.



In the next image I have tilted the B16A3 pan to the point where water is flooding the windage tray. This normally is indicative of the G-limit of the pan in that direction. For reference, 1G lateral acceleration yields a 45 degree angle. Here the limit is found at a modest 9 degrees.



In the other direction a 19 degree tilt is possible before the lip of the pan is reached: a significantly higher level. Again, this is with a stock oil fill:



With 2 quarts in the B18C pan, flooding is reached at a mere 6 degree tilt:



Now, here is the previous 6 degree tilt on the B18C pan with a .75 quart overfill:



Here is the same .75 quart overfill in the other direction; at a mere 10 degrees it massively floods the front of the windage tray:



Conclusion: It is not a question, with the stock pan in both the B16A3 and B18C at very modest lateral accelerations the rotating assembly is flooded and the oil will be churned full of air. With overfills this will happen sooner.

The engine is clearly relying on the ability of the oil pump to compress the entrained air to the relief valve limit (with additional capacity beyond). If the pump is well worn it will lack the ability to compress the air bubbles and/or put them in solution. The solubility of air in paraffinic oils is about 9% per bar atmosphere.

RagingAngel

Given the data presented here in the above post.

Is it possible to counteract these issues with one of your systems you've designed for our motors, or is it just "the nature of things" in our B-series motors and we just have to keep an eye on our oil pressure gauge as the mileage racks up?

neo_

Put a stock oil pan back on, it will most likely solve your issue.

Kevin Johnson

The scrapers and modified windage trays work to remove entrained oil more rapidly. That will lower the parasitic losses and also tend to lower the aeration level.

You can see that if the pan was deeper the onset would be at a greater lateral acceleration. If you look at the oil pan from a Toyota 1ZZ or 2ZZ engine for comparison it has a 1G rating. Ground clearance, chassis clearance, etc. all affect the possible oil pan designs.

Stinkycheezmonky

Is a 1g "rating" good? That's kind of interesting, because I know a few Toyota guys with oiling problems that an aftermarket pan solves. The problem is severe enough that in an autox or track setting motors were blowing left and right.

RagingAngel

uh

Did you even read the thread?

Lude@Heart

are you familiar with the H2B setups? Do you know if the forward tilt of the motor causes the same flooding on the H Oilpans because it now leans forward like a B engine? In which case a custom oil pan to counter the angle would be a good investment.

Kevin Johnson

I believe that I have an F core -- maybe an H core too. I would have to look. You can check this if you have a pan. Just reverse the tilt.

A similar issue comes up when people install tilted transverse mounted engines straight up in a longitudinal mount. I am working on modifying an aftermarket sump for the Zetec motor that addresses this. That is to say, it is a straight up sump.

You will want to pay close attention to how well the pickup tube opening is covered during the water tests in these sorts of swaps.

Kevin Johnson

Yes, a 1G rating is very good. The ZZ pans have a higher rating than this in several directions. The limiting one is to the rear of the engine. The failure mode involves oil entering the 3-4 bays and being trapped and churned. The ZZ engines use a set of tuned chambers to change the pumping exchange between 3-4 to a horizontal movement.

Stinkycheezmonky

Given all that, why do they still pop the engine?

Gats

I had this same issue with my K20A3, especially during hard sweeping uphill left-handers. I was using Hoosier R6s at the time - very grippy. I have since purchased a baffled oil pan with a modified Type S pump from HyTech but have yet to install it. We now have a class which allows us to run good quality street tires instead of 'R' compounds. It's less exciting, lap times will certainly go up but, I might just save my bearings in the process.

Kevin Johnson

Because even in a stock Spyder or Lotus Elise you can pull over 1G laterally. Add stickier rubber and the failures happen more easily. With the Porsche Boxster and Cayman (different engines) you are warned by the factory not to run slicks.

You can run an accumulator but at this level what you are doing is buying a few seconds time. The aftermarket pans get rid of the ramp to the rear of the engine as best they can.

Kevin Johnson

Yep.

Lude@Heart

well I have some news for you guys, my H2B is done and it definately is a huge issue. I know your supposed to overfill the motor a quart to keep the pickup submerged but when I got on a onramp this morning that slopes down i lost oil pressure to the point where the vtec rockerst didnt lock. That really Worrys me, Im wanting to cut the pan and welding sheetmetal onto the bottom to make the pan once again parallel to the road and extend the pickupdown and add a baffle inside. thoughts?

Stinkycheezmonky

Are you sure its the oil pan that is a problem? Do you know of other guys with stock pans that have the same problem?

Kevin Johnson

Get one of those inexpensive digital levels and measure the angle of the block oil pan rail as it sits in the car with respect to the ground. Then measure the angle of the bottom of the pan with respect to the ground.

Guesstimate the angle of the ramp (straight?).

Fill a pan with water with the amount of oil that stays in the pan -- figure two quarts are circulating. Start tilting the pan and see when the rotating assembly starts flooding. I am guessing that the extra quart of oil is what is mostly doing it (sounds like you put it in there?).

Anyway, you have to make these measurements otherwise you are really guessing.

Lude@Heart

what your saying is that the extra quart of oil i snow foaming up in the whirl and thats why im getting no oil pressure? Hmm gtta take a look at that