Intercooler vs. non-intercooler....

[BTRacing]

Anyone ever A/B test their turbo setup with/without an intercooler? I am going to have to do ALOT of modifications to put in an intercooler when I add the turbo, so I'm just wondering if its worth the trouble. Of course I know that its an improvement, but just how much of an improvement? Question is it going to be a track only or a combination? If its a track car and intercooler is not needed. But that would intail you having to have an three core radiator, and a change of gas. You will hear people say that its crazy, and all kind of negative things. It works.

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[HiProfile]

Originally Posted by BTRacing

But that would intail you having to have an three core radiator, and a change of gas. You will hear people say that its crazy, and all kind of negative things. It works.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, but sounds like you think the heat from the air is simply dumping heat into the coolant. What non-intercooling it does is allow the intake charge to be hotter (less dense), meaning more prone to detonation and less oxygen reaching the cylinder.

If it was a 7.8:1 vitara d16 (very low compression), I'd say you're fine. If it was a 10.4:1 B16A, you're fated for disaster.

The only definitive info I can find is at the turbododge forums. Since many of those older cars came w/o intercoolers, they'd know the best. From the last post in the link below, he gained ~15% with moderate boost on a low-compression, low-rpm motor. A smaller Honda that makes more power NA would probably gain a whole lot more.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...r-gains-7.html.

[GT35R_EF]

I guess I'm failing to see what most of you guys consider "a lot of modification". In my build, it was one of the easiest things to do? What car/motor are you putting it on?

[roadsqueegy95]

most stock b series are around 250-350 so there would be a good starting point. 20 hp is 20 hp no matter what power range your at. the question is, do you want to lost 20 hp to keep a bodykit, or would u rather have the extra 20 hp? im sure you can get a intercooler on, might need to do some trimming places, but there are some small intercoolers out there!

[kccord]

Originally Posted by PURP

That's exactly what I'm doing, but I'm trying to find somebody who might be able to give me the MATH on the % loss... not having any luck.

As for everyone's opinions on what I SHOULD do, perhaps if they actually read my original question they would already know that:

1) I KNOW that using an intercooler puts colder air into the engine.
2) I KNOW that this creates more HP.
3) I AM NOT INTERESTED in what YOU would do.
4) I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW the % loss in HP by not using one, so that I can (as the gentleman above stated) "weigh my options".

My God people, its really not that complicated. Its a very straightforward Math question, and my reasons for asking ARE NOT RELEVANT. I am not trying to cut corners OR save money. I am building a car that meets MY priorities... not yours. And I would like some INFORMATION from people who can answer my question.

F%&*!!!!! If you don't have anything genuinely helpful or supportive to add, why don't you stick to the thread about "What's your favorite OEM color" or something like that.

Yeah, you're a dick. The reason to why people haven't given you straight forward answer is because hardly anybody run a turbo without an IC on their aftermarket setup because it's not worth doing and only for the pretenders.

Logic: depends how much boost you're running, more boost pressure ->higher flow of compressed air-> higher air temperature -> no intercooler to cool down->higher IAT -> looses efficiency -> less power.

There are no definate HP or % decrease in power, there are just too many variables (turbo size, engine etc etc).

/end this

[BTRacing]

Originally Posted by HiProfile

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, but sounds like you think the heat from the air is simply dumping heat into the coolant. What non-intercooling it does is allow the intake charge to be hotter (less dense), meaning more prone to detonation and less oxygen reaching the cylinder.

If it was a 7.8:1 vitara d16 (very low compression), I'd say you're fine. If it was a 10.4:1 B16A, you're fated for disaster.

The only definitive info I can find is at the turbododge forums. Since many of those older cars came w/o intercoolers, they'd know the best. From the last post in the link below, he gained ~15% with moderate boost on a low-compression, low-rpm motor. A smaller Honda that makes more power NA would probably gain a whole lot more.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...r-gains-7.html.

I am running a D16 w/ alcohol gas with a three core radiator c/r 10.5:1, my car is for the track no intercooler, there's other things that you can do to comfort the car for no intercooler, even adding a oil cooler well help cool the car. I run a comfortable 1/4 in 12.30 all day up the boost 11's all day, just got me a T4/.63 to reach the 10's.. Once you built right, tune right good to go. Now you wouldnt want to race four five races back to back.

[GT35R_EF]

Originally Posted by BTRacing

I am running a D16 w/ alcohol gas with a three core radiator c/r 10.5:1, my car is for the track no intercooler, there's other things that you can do to comfort the car for no intercooler, even adding a oil cooler well help cool the car. I run a comfortable 1/4 in 12.30 all day up the boost 11's all day, just got me a T4/.63 to reach the 10's.. Once you built right, tune right good to go. Now you wouldnt want to race four five races back to back.

You're not getting it. WTF is the benefit of doing it though? You are risking something that doesn't need even be worried about. It just seems so pointless to me.

[awdgsx96]

Originally Posted by GT35R_EF

You're not getting it. WTF is the benefit of doing it though? You are risking something that doesn't need even be worried about. It just seems so pointless to me.

They'd rather pay for race gas or alky injection and save ~15 lbs. Instead of haing consistent air temps. Makes perfect sense to me

[SOHC_MShue]

Originally Posted by BTRacing

I am running a D16 w/ alcohol gas with a three core radiator c/r 10.5:1, my car is for the track no intercooler, there's other things that you can do to comfort the car for no intercooler, even adding a oil cooler well help cool the car. I run a comfortable 1/4 in 12.30 all day up the boost 11's all day, just got me a T4/.63 to reach the 10's.. Once you built right, tune right good to go. Now you wouldnt want to race four five races back to back.

Lol you went through all the trouble of switching to alcohol just to run 12.3 and maybe an 11? It doesn't sound like this guy is building an all out track car anyways.

[NonovUrbizniz]

Originally Posted by BTRacing

I am running a D16 w/ alcohol gas with a three core radiator c/r 10.5:1, my car is for the track no intercooler, there's other things that you can do to comfort the car for no intercooler, even adding a oil cooler well help cool the car. I run a comfortable 1/4 in 12.30 all day up the boost 11's all day, just got me a T4/.63 to reach the 10's.. Once you built right, tune right good to go. Now you wouldnt want to race four five races back to back.

You're not getting what Hi-Profile is saying... it doesn't matterif you remove the extra heat generated from the engine... it matters that HOT intake air is DANGEROUS...

To prove it to you I recomend you up the boost and see... it's only a matter of time you blow the motor even with alcohol.

If the OP is planning on running pump gas and more than 200hp then I'd say that it would be retarded to go w/o a intercooler...

OP:

Here's the problem.. you're asking a question that only gets answered through DOING IT... and usually that will end with you blowing your engine...

Think about it this way... it will make your tune SUPER unreliable... the tuner will have to over compensate for the higher intake temps... So... when the air is drastically cooler you're going to be running WAY too rich... and when the air is warmer you run SERIOUS risks of detonation...

it may be fine... it may last a long time like that... but it also may blow the first time you're driving up hill on a warm summer day.

Is installing the intercooler now more work then rebuilding your whole engine/car???

Quit bitching and figure it out... (move your ballasts and horn... DONE) intercooler is not something you should even think about running without unless you are PURE JYT setup... and plan on returning it to where it came from sooner rather than later.

Good luck... and you should really lose the attitude when you're asking other people to provide you with knowledge you obviously lack.

[kccord]

Just the attitude you got to loose, forum is forum, we don't know you in person but that was a negative impression towards us helping you. People cannot tell how much power they loose or gain with/without intercooler because it depends in many variable hence a very very vague answer that leads nowhere.

All in the bag, yes intercooler will benefit and dependent on the efficiency on the intercooler and how much boost/power you're pushing. Since for you having an intercooler is major work, people trying to tell you to seek alternative i.e. have a small intercooler and mount it on a free space in the engine bay, away from major heat source. You never mentioned what your goals are, run low boost without intercooler, we know the fact that some turbocharged vehicle from factory uses this setup to bump their torque.

No, it's not a straight forward math question.
My favorite OEM colour is sherwood green.

[Tjabo]

Originally Posted by PURP

Actually, the HID's are in a proper TYC HID projector housing, and that has nothing to do with my question.... but please feel free to voice your presumptuous opinions on unrelated topics.

Ha hahaha. . . . I can relate so much to this response, since so many people seem to want to give you the answer they want you to get, irrespective of what the question actually is. I've been there on this board, and not only do you get answers unsolicited, you also get a lot of attitude for not just saying "Oh yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have wondered about that original question!" LOL. . .

Anyway, having said all of that, I have my own answer to offer that isn't terribly on point either!

I've been doing a lot of searching around on the internet recently on a very similar point, which is to what extent water/methanol injection can replace an air to air (front mount) intercooler. Many people who are running serious water/methanol injection run without FMICs, and most people who are running straight methanol run without one.

Personally, I've seen IATs at less than ambient when injecting after the intercooler, and the effect of the latent heats is much greater when you're injecting into an uncooled air stream. The question is how great is this effect, and the second question is whether there is any gain from losing the extra flow restrictions of the intercooler piping and the intercooler itself.

I anticipate that in a setup where the turbo isn't even close to maxed out (like mine) the gained manifold pressure will simply cause the wastegate to bleed off a bit more exhaust gas, and there will be absolutely no gain. In which case, I hope to learn how far I can push the setup while keeping detonation at bay without the FMIC, purely for a learning exercise.

So in summary, I guess what I'm saying for your purposes (OP), if you have a packaging problem with your FMIC, and you want to push the setup a little bit, you might just investigate some water/methanol injection. A basic kit is only a couple hundred bucks, and might just do everything you need.

[Tjabo]

Originally Posted by NonovUrbizniz

Think about it this way... it will make your tune SUPER unreliable... the tuner will have to over compensate for the higher intake temps... So... when the air is drastically cooler you're going to be running WAY too rich... and when the air is warmer you run SERIOUS risks of detonation...

Do you guys really run engine management that doesn't have temperature compensation in it?

[NonovUrbizniz]

Originally Posted by Tjabo

Do you guys really run engine management that doesn't have temperature compensation in it?

The IAT's would be VERY far apart on a non-intercooled turbo motor. I wouldn't trust the ecu to compensate for changes as wide ranged or often as a non-intercooled turbo motor that's being driven hard on twisty roads...

Maybe I'm being paranoid but to me on a 100degree day ripping through twisty roads the IAT's are going to be ALL over the place and make for unreliable running.

[boosted k20]

just get a water cooled system instead of a front mount intercooler. the IAT of water cooled setups are far cooler than a conventional air to air intercooler. Most intercooled setups i have tuned have IATs from 90*F to 120*F. On a water cooled setup i tuned in an accord with H22 motor, the IAT's were logged as cold as 60*. This cars water cooler was pretty small and fit right before the throttle body

[gospeed81]

I think the other part of the power equation that the OP is missing is that a colder intake charge will allow you to advance your timing...giving you higher torque across the range.

I've seen the difference non-intercooled and intercooled in my timing advance map on the MegaSquirt. The difference is ludicrous...like twice the advance values. And...just like Hondas...no one in the Miata community can push more than 7psi without an intercooler (or WI).

Intercoolers are too efficient to ignore...and worth the install work.

[kccord]

Fark, 60* IAT. When i read my datalog after driving about 25km on a warm/hot day, it was reading 112* on idle.....

[gospeed81]

My IATs stay close to ambient, and can get +20* at the top of fourth gear in boost.

It's also amazing the difference a little bit of ducting can make. Airflow is dicated by pressure differential, so if you can build up pressure in front of the intercooler heat transfer is greater.

Same goes for the radiator...a big problem in my car since the engine bay is actually a high pressure area.

[Unseen Racer]

Originally Posted by Hill4589

It's a hybrid thread so I don't see why you reported it..

Anyways just weigh your options, is that body kit worth keeping or would you like to make more hp but go back to oem?

Originally Posted by Honda-Tech main page

Forced Induction
Superchargers, turbochargers, & related topics

"AND RELATED TOPICS"
intercoolers falls into this category.

not to mention people in the F/I forum will give better advice and information

[TheShodan]

IT's not even a horsepower thing.. its a safety thing. Hotter air can cause detonation, even with fuel added. Detonation leads to a blown engine. People with turbos do not like a blown engine. This is why the hp difference is so apparent. but its your engine. Do as you will.