1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
10-27-2009, 10:53 AM
#76
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
The bosch saturated injectors do not require the box, and the box is not a resistor box. He sells the box with his 1000CC and larger non-bosch peak and hold injectors like his blue max series. I think there is just a big confusion of the facts.
10-27-2009, 11:04 AM
#77
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
As I sift through your post, it still sounds like an expensive, loose fitting, band aid for crappy injectors, or band aid for injectors not supplied with the correct information.
Am I missing something here? You know what else this "magic box" reminds me of? A Kenne Bell boost a pump.
If you are so sure this box actually works properly, where is the flow data? Send it to someone with the knowledge and equipment to get real data out of it..
Am I missing something here? You know what else this "magic box" reminds me of? A Kenne Bell boost a pump.
If you are so sure this box actually works properly, where is the flow data? Send it to someone with the knowledge and equipment to get real data out of it..
10-27-2009, 11:33 AM
#78
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Yeah it does some of the same things that the boost a pump does (which works and is proven by the way) but we're taking it quite a bit further with our new design. Like I said the easy tune box was basicaly ripped off from my friend and its only 1 peice of the total puzzle that will make our "magic box" work as stated.
Your comment about band aid for crappy injectors is like saying a motec PLM is a band aid for crappy O2 sensors. Its not always just about the sensor or injector, its also about how you control them. Injector controller technology hasn't really changed or improved much over the years. Once our box is done and work, imagine how consistant and precise fueling would be combining our box with a set of ID 2000CC injectors. Imagine being able to actually run PWs below 1.5ms stabily.. Heck we may even be able to get those ID 2000s to idle at 14.7.. We'll have to see. Sure it may "band aid" crappy injectors, but it may also improve great injectors even more.
Your comment about band aid for crappy injectors is like saying a motec PLM is a band aid for crappy O2 sensors. Its not always just about the sensor or injector, its also about how you control them. Injector controller technology hasn't really changed or improved much over the years. Once our box is done and work, imagine how consistant and precise fueling would be combining our box with a set of ID 2000CC injectors. Imagine being able to actually run PWs below 1.5ms stabily.. Heck we may even be able to get those ID 2000s to idle at 14.7.. We'll have to see. Sure it may "band aid" crappy injectors, but it may also improve great injectors even more.
10-27-2009, 11:38 AM
#79
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Sorry to jump this thread off topic, but, can someone explain to me what keeps the ID2000's from working with the Q16 gas and what people are using as a alternative?
10-27-2009, 12:00 PM
#80
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
I hope I'm not stealing anyone's thunder here, but Tony told me it was because the ID2Ks have rubber valves and Q16 has an additive that makes the rubber swell so they don't flow what they're supposed to with that fuel.
10-27-2009, 12:31 PM
#81
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
the ID2k's are reactiong with the MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) that is found in vpq16 and vpimport.
it is highly corrosive stuff, im sure tony can chime is as to what part of the injector it effects.
i dont see how they are working with meth either? as i have heard they are doing fine though
it is highly corrosive stuff, im sure tony can chime is as to what part of the injector it effects.
i dont see how they are working with meth either? as i have heard they are doing fine though
10-27-2009, 01:00 PM
#84
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Q16 and VP Import causes the valve to swell, restricting flow. They car compatible with every other fuel we've tested to date. If they are run on either of those fuels, they come back to normal after airing out for about 48 hours.
We recommend C16 or C23 for really high hp applications.
We recommend C16 or C23 for really high hp applications.
10-27-2009, 01:42 PM
#85
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Q16 and VP Import causes the valve to swell, restricting flow. They car compatible with every other fuel we've tested to date. If they are run on either of those fuels, they come back to normal after airing out for about 48 hours.
We recommend C16 or C23 for really high hp applications.
We recommend C16 or C23 for really high hp applications.
10-27-2009, 02:24 PM
#86
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Ok so first off the easy tune box is a very presice voltage regulator, so not only does it raise the operating voltage of the injector, it also maintains this voltage even if the source voltage drops to 9V.. This means you don't have to have different injector offsets for different voltages because your voltage will never change. The ecu will more than likely shut off before the easy tune box will loose the ability to maintain the proper voltage. The other thing, the most important thing, is when you run lets say a 16 volt source to the injectors and the ECU is at 14volts, you know have created a 2 volt offset across the injector. This basically dwells the injector much like you'd dwell an ignition coil. So basically you have a partially energized field in the injector at all times. This almost completely removes that instability that most all injectors have at lower PWs by basically removing the lagtime associated with the field having to build inside the injector as it tries to open. if you look at how an inductive coil reacts on a scope you will understand how this makes perfect sence
What affect does the 'pre charge' of the injector have on the recovery time?
10-27-2009, 05:37 PM
#87
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
No, we do not have any way to test this directly, but the changes in real world on car testing prove that it works. We do know that the injector dwells and that by changing the amount we can affect repsonce time greatly. At some point depending on the injector you actually end up floating the pintle, so its gotta be kinda tuned in for the size of the injector.
After this version is done we have plans on a more advanced version of the injector box to add a digital feedback circuit that will measure the flyback and impeadance of the injector, basically it will be able to LEARN the injector so it can
Dwell,
Open,
Full Cut,
Then right when the injector is almost shut completely,
Burst Pulse and settle back to dwell state.
This will allow the injector to open almost instantly, close as fast as possible and be actively cusioned.
Were doing this on a future version because the cost to design this is quite a bit more involved and theres quite a bit of coding that will need to happen for the digital mapping of the injector, which I don't have time to do right now as I am still teaching myself assembly, and C programming for hardware.
BUT like I said before. It works, and once we have a final prototype of our current design I'll send you one for testing, mabey you can throw it on Paul's setup and see what it'll do. Regardless if theres data or not, anyone who uses the box can instantly see that it works. And we have sent out quite a few test versions of the ripped off version of the box that FIC is currently selling. Jens has agreed that once our new version is done he is switching to our version, but the initial version worked so well that he already had a list of clients making large orders so he will continue to sell that version until we get ours finnished.
10-27-2009, 06:51 PM
#88
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
A few thoughts, in no particular order...
1. The pintle bounce “should” be less. Really?? Any proof of that?
2. How do you derive anything from changing the dynamic response of the injector when you have no way to quantify your changes? If you’re going to tell us it’s better, you should at least explain why. The problems with the 1600 are non linearity due to pintle bounce, poor atomization, and a spray pattern that is too wide. HOW ARE YOU FIXING ANY OF THIS???
3. IT’s FASTER!! OK, what does the motor care? It’s faster means you put the fuel into the motor sooner, not “better” WHY is it better for the injector to open faster? How does that affect the combustion? Maybe worth noting, the Bosch 160lb injector is much quicker to open than the ID1000. Clearly opening quicker is of no benefit besides a small increase in power potential, which goes out the window if recovery time is increased at the expense of opening time decreasing.
4. Don’t you think you better find out how it affects the recovery time? Wouldn’t it be nice to know if it makes the injector go non linear at a much lower duty cycle BEFORE you blow up a motor?
5. Did I ask already WHY the combustion is better if the injector opens faster? OH yeah, why does the motor run better if the injector opens faster?
6. Why are you f*cking around with a bandaid on an old injector when there are new injectors that work fine? This box will never make an old injector as good as current technology injectors, if it does anything beneficial at all.
1. The pintle bounce “should” be less. Really?? Any proof of that?
2. How do you derive anything from changing the dynamic response of the injector when you have no way to quantify your changes? If you’re going to tell us it’s better, you should at least explain why. The problems with the 1600 are non linearity due to pintle bounce, poor atomization, and a spray pattern that is too wide. HOW ARE YOU FIXING ANY OF THIS???
3. IT’s FASTER!! OK, what does the motor care? It’s faster means you put the fuel into the motor sooner, not “better” WHY is it better for the injector to open faster? How does that affect the combustion? Maybe worth noting, the Bosch 160lb injector is much quicker to open than the ID1000. Clearly opening quicker is of no benefit besides a small increase in power potential, which goes out the window if recovery time is increased at the expense of opening time decreasing.
4. Don’t you think you better find out how it affects the recovery time? Wouldn’t it be nice to know if it makes the injector go non linear at a much lower duty cycle BEFORE you blow up a motor?
5. Did I ask already WHY the combustion is better if the injector opens faster? OH yeah, why does the motor run better if the injector opens faster?
6. Why are you f*cking around with a bandaid on an old injector when there are new injectors that work fine? This box will never make an old injector as good as current technology injectors, if it does anything beneficial at all.
10-27-2009, 07:40 PM
#89
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
A few thoughts, in no particular order...
1. The pintle bounce “should” be less. Really?? Any proof of that?
2. How do you derive anything from changing the dynamic response of the injector when you have no way to quantify your changes? If you’re going to tell us it’s better, you should at least explain why. The problems with the 1600 are non linearity due to pintle bounce, poor atomization, and a spray pattern that is too wide. HOW ARE YOU FIXING ANY OF THIS???
3. IT’s FASTER!! OK, what does the motor care? It’s faster means you put the fuel into the motor sooner, not “better” WHY is it better for the injector to open faster? How does that affect the combustion? Maybe worth noting, the Bosch 160lb injector is much quicker to open than the ID1000. Clearly opening quicker is of no benefit besides a small increase in power potential, which goes out the window if recovery time is increased at the expense of opening time decreasing.
4. Don’t you think you better find out how it affects the recovery time? Wouldn’t it be nice to know if it makes the injector go non linear at a much lower duty cycle BEFORE you blow up a motor?
5. Did I ask already WHY the combustion is better if the injector opens faster? OH yeah, why does the motor run better if the injector opens faster?
6. Why are you f*cking around with a bandaid on an old injector when there are new injectors that work fine? This box will never make an old injector as good as current technology injectors, if it does anything beneficial at all.
1. The pintle bounce “should” be less. Really?? Any proof of that?
2. How do you derive anything from changing the dynamic response of the injector when you have no way to quantify your changes? If you’re going to tell us it’s better, you should at least explain why. The problems with the 1600 are non linearity due to pintle bounce, poor atomization, and a spray pattern that is too wide. HOW ARE YOU FIXING ANY OF THIS???
3. IT’s FASTER!! OK, what does the motor care? It’s faster means you put the fuel into the motor sooner, not “better” WHY is it better for the injector to open faster? How does that affect the combustion? Maybe worth noting, the Bosch 160lb injector is much quicker to open than the ID1000. Clearly opening quicker is of no benefit besides a small increase in power potential, which goes out the window if recovery time is increased at the expense of opening time decreasing.
4. Don’t you think you better find out how it affects the recovery time? Wouldn’t it be nice to know if it makes the injector go non linear at a much lower duty cycle BEFORE you blow up a motor?
5. Did I ask already WHY the combustion is better if the injector opens faster? OH yeah, why does the motor run better if the injector opens faster?
6. Why are you f*cking around with a bandaid on an old injector when there are new injectors that work fine? This box will never make an old injector as good as current technology injectors, if it does anything beneficial at all.
2. We are not claiming to fix the problems with wide spray pattern or poor atomization. We are claiming that large injectors will idle very smoothly and operate much more stabily at low pulse widths. Any injector. not just crappy ones, not just IDs. but any injector. Anyways, so what are you saying.. All of a sudden everyone just started making **** tons of power cause ID injectors have better atomization? If I remember correctly people have been making tons of power long before these injectors were even out. So no we are not fixing this and its a moot point in the grand scheme of things, we are just saying you can get better idle quality from standard injectors and mabey even IDs cause the same principles apply.
3. Did I ever claim that a faster repsonce time would make more power? Did i say anthing about that being important. NO. I mearly stated that injector responce time was faster. But wouldn't a faster responce time mean the injector duty will actually be less, since less time is wasted waiting for the injector to open? So faster responce = Less duty/same fuel delivery.. Why wouldn't you want this?
4. Yes, it would be interesting to see how it affects recovery time. We do not have a way to test this yet. But I can tell you we havn't blown up any motors and I think thats a bit of an exaggeration.
5. You could have put this under question 4, cause its the same thing.
6. Well first of all, it should improve ALL injectors, from crappy standard ones to IDs.. 2ndly lets go over this again.. So we zero out battery offset tables, we increase voltage which increases flow capability, we increase responce which reduces duties at a given fuel delivery, we regulate the voltage so fluctuations in voltage don't affect fueling. I don't see how this could be a bad thing.
10-27-2009, 07:50 PM
#91
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
So you can have good drivability with 1600's on Crome!
10-27-2009, 07:51 PM
#92
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Actually we have done exactly this but with eCtune.. Precision 1600s on a stock B16 Turbo, with eCtune. Perfect idle. Was able to lean it out into the 15s with no pops or studders. Unfortunatly no one video taped it.. and its all long gone. But we'll do it again when we get the new box done. I want to try it with a set of ID2000s and see if we can get the idle in the 15s stabily like we did on the 1600s..
10-27-2009, 07:57 PM
#93
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
1.Yes the pintle bounce should be less. If you never fully collapse the field then the pintle will close more slowly than it would if there was no field. I mean the field is what raises the pintle in the first place right? So why wouldn't having a partial magnetic field present slow down the pintle as it returns?
The pintle bounces when it opens, at the top of it's range, not during closing.
2. We are not claiming to fix the problems with wide spray pattern or poor atomization. We are claiming that large injectors will idle very smoothly and operate much more stabily at low pulse widths. Any injector. not just crappy ones, not just IDs. but any injector. Anyways, so what are you saying.. All of a sudden everyone just started making **** tons of power cause ID injectors have better atomization? If I remember correctly people have been making tons of power long before these injectors were even out. So no we are not fixing this and its a moot point in the grand scheme of things, we are just saying you can get better idle quality from standard injectors and mabey even IDs cause the same principles apply.
How can you have a smooth idle with a stable a/f ratio if you're operating in an non linear flow range of the injector? I still fail to realize what the actual benefit is in this box. What does it actually do that causes an improvement in idle quality? Opening an injector quicker does not change idle quality.
3. Did I ever claim that a faster repsonce time would make more power? Did i say anthing about that being important. NO. I mearly stated that injector responce time was faster. But wouldn't a faster responce time mean the injector duty will actually be less, since less time is wasted waiting for the injector to open? So faster responce = Less duty/same fuel delivery.. Why wouldn't you want this?
ASSuming you don't double the recovery time at the same time.. And besides, if people are getting better results with this box, what is it that's actually causing the improvement?
4. Yes, it would be interesting to see how it affects recovery time. We do not have a way to test this yet. But I can tell you we havn't blown up any motors and I think thats a bit of an exaggeration.
Have you seen how non linear the flow gets at the top of a 160lb injector? If the recovery time slows more than the opening time changes, that will move down to a lower duty cycle. As it stands, at 3 bar fuel pressure and about 9k rpms, somewhere around 84% duty is where things start to go non linear.
5. You could have put this under question 4, cause its the same thing.
6. Well first of all, it should improve ALL injectors, from crappy standard ones to IDs.. 2ndly lets go over this again.. So we zero out battery offset tables, we increase voltage which increases flow capability, we increase responce which reduces duties at a given fuel delivery, we regulate the voltage so fluctuations in voltage don't affect fueling. I don't see how this could be a bad thing.
Until you measure recovery time, all the claims about increasing fuel flow potential are just claims. On paper, what's giving you a decrease in opening time should also give you an increase in recovery time.
As far as regulating voltage so fluctuations don't affect fueling and being able to zero out battery comp tables (which you still can't zero, there has to be a correct value for dead time for fueling to be correct, you're just limiting it to a single value), can't the same result be had with simply using the correct dead time values?
The pintle bounces when it opens, at the top of it's range, not during closing.
2. We are not claiming to fix the problems with wide spray pattern or poor atomization. We are claiming that large injectors will idle very smoothly and operate much more stabily at low pulse widths. Any injector. not just crappy ones, not just IDs. but any injector. Anyways, so what are you saying.. All of a sudden everyone just started making **** tons of power cause ID injectors have better atomization? If I remember correctly people have been making tons of power long before these injectors were even out. So no we are not fixing this and its a moot point in the grand scheme of things, we are just saying you can get better idle quality from standard injectors and mabey even IDs cause the same principles apply.
How can you have a smooth idle with a stable a/f ratio if you're operating in an non linear flow range of the injector? I still fail to realize what the actual benefit is in this box. What does it actually do that causes an improvement in idle quality? Opening an injector quicker does not change idle quality.
3. Did I ever claim that a faster repsonce time would make more power? Did i say anthing about that being important. NO. I mearly stated that injector responce time was faster. But wouldn't a faster responce time mean the injector duty will actually be less, since less time is wasted waiting for the injector to open? So faster responce = Less duty/same fuel delivery.. Why wouldn't you want this?
ASSuming you don't double the recovery time at the same time.. And besides, if people are getting better results with this box, what is it that's actually causing the improvement?
4. Yes, it would be interesting to see how it affects recovery time. We do not have a way to test this yet. But I can tell you we havn't blown up any motors and I think thats a bit of an exaggeration.
Have you seen how non linear the flow gets at the top of a 160lb injector? If the recovery time slows more than the opening time changes, that will move down to a lower duty cycle. As it stands, at 3 bar fuel pressure and about 9k rpms, somewhere around 84% duty is where things start to go non linear.
5. You could have put this under question 4, cause its the same thing.
6. Well first of all, it should improve ALL injectors, from crappy standard ones to IDs.. 2ndly lets go over this again.. So we zero out battery offset tables, we increase voltage which increases flow capability, we increase responce which reduces duties at a given fuel delivery, we regulate the voltage so fluctuations in voltage don't affect fueling. I don't see how this could be a bad thing.
Until you measure recovery time, all the claims about increasing fuel flow potential are just claims. On paper, what's giving you a decrease in opening time should also give you an increase in recovery time.
As far as regulating voltage so fluctuations don't affect fueling and being able to zero out battery comp tables (which you still can't zero, there has to be a correct value for dead time for fueling to be correct, you're just limiting it to a single value), can't the same result be had with simply using the correct dead time values?
10-27-2009, 08:04 PM
#94
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
So we zero out battery offset tables, we increase voltage which increases flow capability, we increase responce which reduces duties at a given fuel delivery, we regulate the voltage so fluctuations in voltage don't affect fueling. I don't see how this could be a bad thing.
10-27-2009, 09:45 PM
#95
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
^^ no, not really. You still need dead times regardless, were just trying to condense it down so you only need them at 1 voltage and not across a whole spectrum of voltages. I should have said that, "zero out" makes it sound like I meant no dead time..
I have a missunderstanding of pintle bounce then. I was under the impression that pintle bounce occured when the pintle was released from the field and basically dropped on the seat. So when you say pintle bounce what you really mean is unstable control of the pintles position at lower duty cycles. If this is what you mean, then I can only guess this is cause by the relation of where the pintle is in alignment with the coil and the lines of the field. Is this correct? What your saying about recovery time makes sence but like I said we have no way to test this and so far with in car tests we havn't seen anything yet that shows this as being an issue. I promise you this acutally works lol.. I've seen it with my own eyes, and several other people have tested and reported the same findings. Mabey theres some other reasons why..
I will find out.. Once these boxes are done I'll send you one to test. You and paul yaw can tear it apart on his test bench..
I have a missunderstanding of pintle bounce then. I was under the impression that pintle bounce occured when the pintle was released from the field and basically dropped on the seat. So when you say pintle bounce what you really mean is unstable control of the pintles position at lower duty cycles. If this is what you mean, then I can only guess this is cause by the relation of where the pintle is in alignment with the coil and the lines of the field. Is this correct? What your saying about recovery time makes sence but like I said we have no way to test this and so far with in car tests we havn't seen anything yet that shows this as being an issue. I promise you this acutally works lol.. I've seen it with my own eyes, and several other people have tested and reported the same findings. Mabey theres some other reasons why..
I will find out.. Once these boxes are done I'll send you one to test. You and paul yaw can tear it apart on his test bench..
10-28-2009, 05:07 AM
#96
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
From an outsiders perspective it sounds like there are alot of assumptions with this product. By your own omissons you are unable to test a lot of the things you say this box does. I would definately love to see some data.
10-28-2009, 08:04 AM
#97
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
Yeah, thats why I keep saying once I get the new one done I'll send tony one. Cause I know he'll test it just to try and prove it doesn't work lol.. I don't know who else could get the kind of data thats ID gets. But it definatly does somthing, and it definatly makes the injectors idle 100X better, and it definatly allows us to run at much lower PWs without studders/pops or inconsistant AFRs. So we'll just have to see when its done.
10-28-2009, 04:12 PM
#98
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
you know what i think about all this, i think that sometime we are to quick in our judgment of others and their product so we all should let him prove his theory and finding by posting the information( i don't mean the specs and all so that people could copy it) to prove his point and yes i understand what tony is getting at but lets give bugermass a chance.
10-28-2009, 08:27 PM
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Re: 1000 cc Bosch Vs Injector Dynamics
SO.. I was looking at this graph.. And what did I see.. Well thanks to tony, he validated one main reason why my box works.. @ 12volts the non linearities in the injector sit around 1.8ms pulse width.. At 18volts they are at almost 1ms PW, this completely explains why with the current version of the box we get perfectly smooth idle.. So basically our box is moving the glitchy behaivior of the injector to an area we don't use anyways..
Heres the graph, look for yourself.
Heres the graph, look for yourself.