taz4626

hello everyone i purchased my first honda accord about 3 months ago now and was wondering if anyone knew what was available for my engine i have a 1999 honda accord 2.0l vtec sohc exec model. the engine is the f20b6 made for the european market the engine at the moment is completely standard and is quick but as with boys and our toys i wanna tweak and play.
Also i seem to lose about 0.5-1L of oil every 500 miles i cannot see any oil on the block or under the car and there is no sign of oil on the floor when i move the car. i cant see any blue tint in the exhaust fumes. i have been advised that it may be the valve stem seals and i was looking at reconning my head and doing the cam belt and balance belt at the same time as they are due is this the right way to go or is there anything else anyone could think of i have compression tested the engine and that comes up fine i have also checked for pressure coming up the dipstick pipe to see if there is pressure getting into the sump and that is also fine
so any information on the leak or mods for the engine is greatly welcome


cheers
rob

P_Adams

Rob:

What you're going to run into is (dispite the fact that this forum reaches international) a lack of general product knowledge of the EDM (European Domestic Market) Honda product line. (There hasn't been a 2.0l accord in the US since 1989).

You will most likely find some folks here that can help, but you'll have to wait for them to weigh in.

If you aren't leaking oil, you're burning it.
Depending on the vehicle history, climate and how the car was driven; perhaps the piston rings have glazed or have started binding in the ring grooves.

It might be worth a drive with someone following you watching your tail pipe. Get it good and hot and vary where you drive; city / highway etc.
If it 'puffs' and when it 'puffs' will determine what I'll recommend.

P

taz4626

just one to throw in until i can find someone who can keep up to look for puffs of blue as my other half only has a 1989 civic 1.4 auto lol i find i lose more oil doing motorway miles traveling in the vtec range at higer speeds where as if i keep the speed down and be gentle with her it seems to lose less also i did a compression test that showed the correct compression for the engine in each cylinder and thought that would rule out piston rings??

ps thanks for the advice about not many being familier with my engine i have been wondering why my engine seems so unheard of

P_Adams

The insidious thing about piston rings is that dispite they're having issues, the very thing they are trying to control, actually helps them seal
Remember, you can have great compression rings, but lousy Oil Control Rings.

P

taz4626

this is true but is there anyway of telling if its oil control rings or if its valve stem seals without pulling the engine apart , or would it be worth reconnign the head and doing piston rings at the same time? if i take the head off is there anyway of checking rings without removing the piston itself? or would it be worth pulling the pistons anyways and changing the rings if im gonna have the engine that stripped down anyways? how easy are the pistons to remove on the honda engines with the head removed? i can get the head complete recon / overhaul for £150 just depends wether its worth doing the rings aswell?

P_Adams

Valve stem seals will cause oil burning (smoke) mostly during idle and low speed operation because of the high vacuum enviroment that the intake valve experiences. (sucks oil past the valve stem and then past the stem seal)
In the majority of cases, manufacturers don't even put stem seals on exhaust valves (for two reasons). One for lubrication purposes and the other because it doesn't see the vacuum that the intake sees.

Piston rings cause smoke during super-high vacuum conditions; like decellerating off a highway or from a high speed jaunt. The high vacuum pulls the oil past the rings into the combustion chamber.
Where does this oil come from (You ask)? It's purposely thrown off the connecting rod journals onto the cylinder walls to lubricate the pistons.

Remove the pistons? If you're going that far I would suggest pulling the entire engine and putting it on an engine stand. That way you have all manner of room to work, and can keep everything cleaned properly

P

taz4626

with the valve stem seals would it be a small enough amount of oil for the catalytic converter to remove the blueishness from the exhaust fumes? and if it were rings i would of thought i would be able to see something but as yet nothing has been seen?

Targa250R

The cause of oil consumption on the vast majority of Honda engines is seized or worn oil control rings on the pistons. Occasionally you'll see bad valve stem seals, but not very often.

P_Adams

I've had repeated success using this to free varnished piston rings. It has worked equally well on both GM and Honda vehicles.



GM Top Engine Cleaner PN# 1050002

I believe it available within the European Dealer Parts Distribution network as well.
It's original intent was as a decarboning agent, being introduced thru the intake track.
I use it as a penetrating oil, introducing it thru the spark plug holes.
I divide the product equally among the cylinders and let the engine sit for several hours. After that (and a few "adult approved beverages") I'd cover the valve cover with a shop rag, expell any extra remaining by spinning the engine over (to avoid hydrolock). Reinstall the plugs and start it up - allow it to fully warm up, varing the rpms for several minutes. After about ten (10) minutes; shut it off. Perform an oil change with a new filter.

What you've done here is two things.
1) Introduced a penatrating agent strong enough to desolve varnishes and carbon build up.
2) By allowing it to heat with the oil, it was again introduced to the ring areas in a heated state during the time the rings are being 'worked' - vibrations and all.

Make sure you do this outside, and let your neighbors know what you're doing. The cloud which arises could be quite surprising.

P

taz4626

i cant seem to find this product for sale on the net or ebay but i will have a look at my local car parts place and see if they know of it or anything similar and ill let you know if i can find some thanks for the tip by the way anything is worth a try before taking the head off .

P_Adams

There is the chance that it may have had a PN# change.
It was 1050002 and may have been changed to:
88861802 (in Canada, 88861804). It is the same product.

It is part of the Goodwrench line of maintaince chemicals availab;e thru GM dealers Parts division.

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taz4626

i have been trying to find the engine cleaner and everywhere i look is drawing a blank i cant even find it for sale on the goodwrench website, i have searched the web and i can find articles on how to use it but noone seems to sell it. I have also tried my local car shop and parts shop and they have no way of getting gm products either. Is it just a penetrating oil that i need to use or is the gm tec got other additives in it if it has any help of getting hold of a can would be great as it just seems non existant everywhere i look cheers - rob

P_Adams

Well;
I found this place. Now the question arises about shipping....
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm

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taz4626

just phoned my local vauxhall dealer and they will have it in about 2 days and they are literally a stones throw from my front door which is a bonus, also would you recommend disconnecting my catalytic converter when i do this so as not to clog that up or will it not make a difference?? many thanks again for all your help on this and i suppose if this doesnt work it will be the head recon but at least if it does work ill save myself £350 quid yay

P_Adams

Disconnecting the converter will not be required. I've used this product since the early '80's without incident. Gm publishes no warnings regarding converters; care in handling (yes) but not converters

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taz4626

excelent stuff saves some hassle lol ill let you know how it goes ill hopefully do it over the weekend as we have snow and rain at the moment so not the best weather for oil changing

taz4626

just been to pick up what i though was the top end cleaner but all they actually do is an oil additive flush it says its meant to do the roughly the same thing but am dubious about it being as good as soaking the pistons as your meant to run your engine for 45 minutes with it in the crankcase does anybody know if this would be as effective or if there is anything i can use instead of the top end cleaner to soak the pistons???? the garage also told me they cant actually get hold of gm vehicle care products they use a different range made by "forte"
i have just managed to find this on ebay is this the same thing and will it work?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TEC-2000-PETRO...1%7C240%3A1318

and this is the safety data sheet for it http://www.tec2000.eu/bezpecnostni%20listy/01-FIC.pdf

P_Adams

Check your PM bucket

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taz4626

i have now used some injector cleaner in my cylinders, flushed my engine with a flush that is designed to clear glazing from the bores and sludge out of the oil and reflushed the engine with fresh oil the changed the oil for fully synthetic 5w-30, chnaged my plugs and fuel filter just for good measure.

ialso lifted my rocker cover to have a look inside and its all stll golden and looks nice and clean i have added a pic for people to see

im hoping this may solve my issues

when i first removed my plugs there was alot of white deposit ive added a pic any ideas what causes the white deposits as my no3 cylinder has the most, i cleaned the plugs up to remove the deposits and took another photo of the plugs after the flush had run for about an hour and have posted that one too if anyone has any thoughts on the deposits or the state of the plugs after the flush or at the crap that came out of the exhaust during the 1 hour flush which is shown in the last two pics they would be greatly appreciated

P_Adams

The Spark Plugs:

First Photo with the chalk grey electrodes:
Good color, what I'd expect to see burning unleaded. Notice the center electrodes (however); see how they are rounded? They (the Plugs) should be replaced.
2nd from the left shows some of the original carbon (negative electrode)

Second Photo with the dark brown electrodes.
Quite common color responce from burning off the remainder of the cleaner. Plug furthest right was actually starting to burn off. The second from the left was catching up.

Good job on the internals. most engines assume a more golden color inside when the oil is changed religiously. Sorry to say, some of us aren't so 'religious'; and the inside of those engines rival the Le brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.

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journeyforce

Hello,
How is your coolant level and color? Oil can disapear out of the crank case in 3 ways
1. Leaking it
2. Burning it
3. Winding up in the coolant due a head gasket or intake
Don't discount the possibility of a leak because you can not find it or it don't leak on the ground. It may leak a few drops every time you are at a certain RPM/Speed and you would never see it leak or the leak could with the help of the air displaced when driving be attached to the underside of the car body. a couple of drops every so many feet will drain your oil pan of oil.
I had a Lebaron that lost about a quart every 700 miles and it was not burning it or in the coolant but in fact was leaking out when driving and affixing itself to the underside of the car
Good luck
L

taz4626

i am pretty sure im not leaking it as the underside of my engine and sump is dry and does not have any marks of residual oil and as for the coolant it looks fine. i am pretty sure its burning it just dont know if its rings or head im hoping i may have been able to clean the rings up with the flushing i have done, if that hasnt worked im looking to get my head reconned and go from there and with the head removed i can get a better look at the pistons.

richrd0001

I have the same problem as Taz4626 but my machine is an '89 Prelude SI with abt. 420,000 miles on it. My plugs are not fouled but have a tan color. Good power and acceleration. Oil consumption only recent and it came on suddenly.

Q1. Wouldn't there be plug fouling if oil control rings are the source of the oil leak?

I lose about 1 qt. of oil every 300 miles and there's no smoke at all, but for occasional small amounts of white smoke. Some drops of liquid oil will come out the tail pipe if engine is revved in neutral. Fair amount of carbon in the tailpipe.

Q2. Could valve seals leak and dump oil directly into the exhaust manifold and some of it come out the tail pipe unburned? Odd that unburned oil could get all the way through hot exhaust system . . . .